Active shooter - DC Navy yard

[wmw999 2,383]

It's difficult to stop the truly determined at anything; they say the same thing about home security.

What can be done to stop the guy who's just drunk and happens to have a gun and a grudge, or the guy who's not real swift and has a gun and a grudge; I have a feeling that either of them could be deflected under the right circumstances.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rushmc 23]

wmw999

It's difficult to stop the truly determined at anything; they say the same thing about home security.

What can be done to stop the guy who's just drunk and happens to have a gun and a grudge, or the guy who's not real swift and has a gun and a grudge; I have a feeling that either of them could be deflected under the right circumstances.

Wendy P.

SO, what can be done?

Both sides can bring up rare and rediculas senarios to support their position.

And nothing is 100%

If we could make 100% remideations, we would not have skydiving fatalities from double mals now would we.

So actually, I agree with you last point
But, I dont think it supports your position

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

masterrig

I think that was the media, screaming 'assault weapons'. Everything I've read or heard on the news was that police said there was no assault rifle involved. A shotgun and a semi-auto pistol. Sounds to me that the media is promoting

That quote is the bottom of page 7...this is page nine.
I'm going to predict that in Page 8 or 9, someone will say something snarky like "well, there were used in an assault and they are weapons, so we can say the media was correct in calling a shotgun and a pistol as 'assault weapons'"

edit: nope, prediction not confirmed - nice job guys. next experiment in the works.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,383]

It wasn't a position, it was a question.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bignugget 0]

Gravitymaster

*********

I fail to see why it matters to the victims what type of firearm was used to shoot them.

The issue isn't the type of gun. The issue is the ease with which nutjobs can get hold of guns - any guns.

For those who want to ban AR-15s, it sure seems to matter, even though rifles are rarely used for crime.

Now if we can just get Kallend to agree that it doesn't matter to victims if they're killed with guns or knives or bats, then we'll really be making progress.

When we can get you gun nuts to agree that it is way easier/faster/more effective to shoot 12 people than it is to kill them with cordless drills and ping pong balls we will be making progress.

When we can get you gun nuts to agree that a crazy person like this man would be much less dangerous if armed with baseball bats, hockey sticks, and samurai swords, than with a shotgun and handgun, then we are making progress.
When we can get you anti-2nd Amendment Gun-o-phobes to realize that when someone is bent on a mass killing, that the gun is only one tool. If you take it away, they will use pipe-bombs, swords, IED's or whatever else they can ge their hands on at the time to kill, then we will be making progress.

When we can get you to understand that the problem is in our society and not in the availability of guns, then we will be making progress.


I understand quite well that a crazy person will do crazy things, and that is extremely difficult to predict and prevent. I acknowledge that it is nearly impossible to stop crazy.

Now do you acknowledge that it is harder to kill 12 people with a cordless drill than it is a shotgun?

[Backintothesky 0]

I think this is the main problem. My girlfriend says all the time that "extreme" viewpoints, regardless of their motive, are almost always bad. The more I think about it, the more I agree with her.

The "ban every gun in the world" anti-gun lobby are just as wrong and dangerous as the "no limits" pro-gun lobby. Both can lead to people dying unnecessarily. There's even someone in here who suggested the death penalty for anyone who has a gun!

Extreme viewpoints are almost never based on actual reality, but on utopian ideals. Reality is more nuanced than "all guns are bad" and "more guns are good".

Unfortunately the world's media/politicians tends to be very good at whipping up polarising opinions, none more so than the American.

Quote

Both sides can bring up rare and rediculas senarios to support their position.

[Bignugget 0]

I think that. But I want to see them executed summarily by firing squad. Specifically a firing squad armed with cordless drills.

[masterrig 1]

rehmwa

***I think that was the media, screaming 'assault weapons'. Everything I've read or heard on the news was that police said there was no assault rifle involved. A shotgun and a semi-auto pistol. Sounds to me that the media is promoting

That quote is the bottom of page 7...this is page nine.
I'm going to predict that in Page 8 or 9, someone will say something snarky like "well, there were used in an assault and they are weapons, so we can say the media was correct in calling a shotgun and a pistol as 'assault weapons'"

edit: nope, prediction not confirmed - nice job guys. next experiment in the works.

I am amazed!


Chuck

[Backintothesky 0]

Obviously that's the extreme position I'm talking about

In all seriousness, it is clear that guns (amongst many other things) kill a lot of people worldwide.

So, if you are being serious on here, what do you hope to achieve with a total gun ban and what makes you think it is achievable?

Bignugget

I think that. But I want to see them executed summarily by firing squad. Specifically a firing squad armed with cordless drills.

[turtlespeed 212]

Bignugget

************

I fail to see why it matters to the victims what type of firearm was used to shoot them.

The issue isn't the type of gun. The issue is the ease with which nutjobs can get hold of guns - any guns.

For those who want to ban AR-15s, it sure seems to matter, even though rifles are rarely used for crime.

Now if we can just get Kallend to agree that it doesn't matter to victims if they're killed with guns or knives or bats, then we'll really be making progress.

When we can get you gun nuts to agree that it is way easier/faster/more effective to shoot 12 people than it is to kill them with cordless drills and ping pong balls we will be making progress.

When we can get you gun nuts to agree that a crazy person like this man would be much less dangerous if armed with baseball bats, hockey sticks, and samurai swords, than with a shotgun and handgun, then we are making progress.
When we can get you anti-2nd Amendment Gun-o-phobes to realize that when someone is bent on a mass killing, that the gun is only one tool. If you take it away, they will use pipe-bombs, swords, IED's or whatever else they can ge their hands on at the time to kill, then we will be making progress.

When we can get you to understand that the problem is in our society and not in the availability of guns, then we will be making progress.


I understand quite well that a crazy person will do crazy things, and that is extremely difficult to predict and prevent. I acknowledge that it is nearly impossible to stop crazy.

Now do you acknowledge that it is harder to kill 12 people with a cordless drill than it is a shotgun?

As with anything, it depends on the situation.

But that is immaterial. In your world, if you can kill with it, it should be banned. If only in your world there were padded rooms everywhere.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jgoose71 0]

When I was in Iraq, the compound that I was on has one of Saddam Husseins old wood chippers that he would feed people into when they pissed him off.

Rumor has it a lot of people were fed through that wood shipper. Head first if he likes you, feet first if he didn't...

Anyway, since wood chippers have been responsible for 10,000 of deaths all through the 90's, they should be banned also while we are banning things.

I'm also still waiting for a ban on pressure cookers.....

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[turtlespeed 212]

jgoose71

When I was in Iraq, the compound that I was on has one of Saddam Husseins old wood chippers that he would feed people into when they pissed him off.

Rumor has it a lot of people were fed through that wood shipper. Head first if he likes you, feet first if he didn't...

Anyway, since wood chippers have been responsible for 10,000 of deaths all through the 90's, they should be banned also while we are banning things.

I'm also still waiting for a ban on pressure cookers.....

Lets live here!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jgoose71 0]

turtlespeed

***When I was in Iraq, the compound that I was on has one of Saddam Husseins old wood chippers that he would feed people into when they pissed him off.

Rumor has it a lot of people were fed through that wood shipper. Head first if he likes you, feet first if he didn't...

Anyway, since wood chippers have been responsible for 10,000 of deaths all through the 90's, they should be banned also while we are banning things.

I'm also still waiting for a ban on pressure cookers.....

Lets live here!

HA!!!! They forgot his splash proof goggles and a thermometer to check the temperature of the coffee! FAIL!!!!

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[turtlespeed 212]

jgoose71

******When I was in Iraq, the compound that I was on has one of Saddam Husseins old wood chippers that he would feed people into when they pissed him off.

Rumor has it a lot of people were fed through that wood shipper. Head first if he likes you, feet first if he didn't...

Anyway, since wood chippers have been responsible for 10,000 of deaths all through the 90's, they should be banned also while we are banning things.

I'm also still waiting for a ban on pressure cookers.....

Lets live here!

HA!!!! They forgot his splash proof goggles and a thermometer to check the temperature of the coffee! FAIL!!!!


And if you make a bubblewrap gun, they kill you immediately.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[rhaig 0]

Bignugget

Now do you acknowledge that it is harder to kill 12 people with a cordless drill than it is a shotgun?

stop being obtuse. Of course it's harder. (unless you use a high quality carbide bit and a drill with high torque)

But can you also understand that the same place you buy that cordless drill sells all the materials needed to make a pipe bomb?

The problem isn't with the tools used, it's the violence that is accepted in our society as an acceptable way to get acknowledgement.

Reduce the reporting about individuals that do these things. (cut off their 15min of fame even if it's posthumous) Work to reduce violence in cities across the country (start with highest concentrations of all violent crime). Bring back personal accountability. All these are steps that would help more than further firearms restrictions.

--
Rob

[kallend 1,935]

kelpdiver

******For those who want to ban AR-15s, it sure seems to matter, even though rifles are rarely used for crime.

With the exception, of course, of mass shootings in the last few years. So frequent it's almost boiler plate to report their use, which is precisely what happened in this case.

more people get beaten to death by hand than with rifles. Again, you're trying to make public policy on statistical outliers, which is nearly always stupid policy. Even Kallend seems to get this now.



Now? Please pay attention. I have never advocated for a ban on "assault weapons". In fact, I wrote as much in a response to JohnRich when he was still around.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,935]

Gravitymaster

When we can get you anti-2nd Amendment Gun-o-phobes ....

John Rich re-born?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[turtlespeed 212]

kallend

*********For those who want to ban AR-15s, it sure seems to matter, even though rifles are rarely used for crime.

With the exception, of course, of mass shootings in the last few years. So frequent it's almost boiler plate to report their use, which is precisely what happened in this case.

more people get beaten to death by hand than with rifles. Again, you're trying to make public policy on statistical outliers, which is nearly always stupid policy. Even Kallend seems to get this now.



Now? Please pay attention. I have never advocated for a ban on "assault weapons". In fact, I wrote as much in a response to JohnRich when he was still around.

AH, so you want a ban on ALL weapons then.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Bignugget 0]

turtlespeed

***************

I fail to see why it matters to the victims what type of firearm was used to shoot them.

The issue isn't the type of gun. The issue is the ease with which nutjobs can get hold of guns - any guns.

For those who want to ban AR-15s, it sure seems to matter, even though rifles are rarely used for crime.

Now if we can just get Kallend to agree that it doesn't matter to victims if they're killed with guns or knives or bats, then we'll really be making progress.

When we can get you gun nuts to agree that it is way easier/faster/more effective to shoot 12 people than it is to kill them with cordless drills and ping pong balls we will be making progress.

When we can get you gun nuts to agree that a crazy person like this man would be much less dangerous if armed with baseball bats, hockey sticks, and samurai swords, than with a shotgun and handgun, then we are making progress.
When we can get you anti-2nd Amendment Gun-o-phobes to realize that when someone is bent on a mass killing, that the gun is only one tool. If you take it away, they will use pipe-bombs, swords, IED's or whatever else they can ge their hands on at the time to kill, then we will be making progress.

When we can get you to understand that the problem is in our society and not in the availability of guns, then we will be making progress.


I understand quite well that a crazy person will do crazy things, and that is extremely difficult to predict and prevent. I acknowledge that it is nearly impossible to stop crazy.

Now do you acknowledge that it is harder to kill 12 people with a cordless drill than it is a shotgun?

As with anything, it depends on the situation.

But that is immaterial. In your world, if you can kill with it, it should be banned. If only in your world there were padded rooms everywhere.


And here in lies the problem.

I acknowledged your position.

When given the chance to acknowledge mine, you instead redefined my position.


Now do you acknowledge that it is harder to kill 12 people with a cordless drill than it is a shotgun, regardless of the situation?

[rushmc 23]

kallend

*********For those who want to ban AR-15s, it sure seems to matter, even though rifles are rarely used for crime.

With the exception, of course, of mass shootings in the last few years. So frequent it's almost boiler plate to report their use, which is precisely what happened in this case.

more people get beaten to death by hand than with rifles. Again, you're trying to make public policy on statistical outliers, which is nearly always stupid policy. Even Kallend seems to get this now.



Now? Please pay attention. I have never advocated for a ban on "assault weapons". In fact, I wrote as much in a response to JohnRich when he was still around.

Not directly
but when you were once honest about what you would do, it was obvious that is what it would be, a ban

So stop trying to hide your real intentions
Everyone here knows better

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[turtlespeed 212]

Logically, and by definition, I can't agree that "regardless of the situation" a cordless drill is harder to kill someone with than a shotgun. I can think of a plethora of scenarios that it would not be accurate or true.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Bignugget 0]

rhaig

***
Now do you acknowledge that it is harder to kill 12 people with a cordless drill than it is a shotgun?

stop being obtuse. Of course it's harder. (unless you use a high quality carbide bit and a drill with high torque)

But can you also understand that the same place you buy that cordless drill sells all the materials needed to make a pipe bomb?

The problem isn't with the tools used, it's the violence that is accepted in our society as an acceptable way to get acknowledgement.

Reduce the reporting about individuals that do these things. (cut off their 15min of fame even if it's posthumous) Work to reduce violence in cities across the country (start with highest concentrations of all violent crime). Bring back personal accountability. All these are steps that would help more than further firearms restrictions.


there we go, a reasonable answer.

Of course it is MUCH MUCH MUCH harder to mass kill with a cordless drill than a gun.

Of course pipe bombs are bad, and they are already banned.

No pipe bombs allowed for "home defense"
No "right to bear pipe bombs"

I agree pipe bombs are also tools that make killing easy. They are banned, and should stay banned.

Guns should be banned also.

Will people still use pipe bombs even though they are banned? Sure. Is that a reason to NOT BAN them? No.

[rushmc 23]

turtlespeed

************For those who want to ban AR-15s, it sure seems to matter, even though rifles are rarely used for crime.

With the exception, of course, of mass shootings in the last few years. So frequent it's almost boiler plate to report their use, which is precisely what happened in this case.

more people get beaten to death by hand than with rifles. Again, you're trying to make public policy on statistical outliers, which is nearly always stupid policy. Even Kallend seems to get this now.



Now? Please pay attention. I have never advocated for a ban on "assault weapons". In fact, I wrote as much in a response to JohnRich when he was still around.

AH, so you want a ban on ALL weapons then.

Except for people he and his think alike buddies would deem ok

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Bignugget 0]

Lol.

Again, not what I said.

[kallend 1,935]

rushmc

************For those who want to ban AR-15s, it sure seems to matter, even though rifles are rarely used for crime.

With the exception, of course, of mass shootings in the last few years. So frequent it's almost boiler plate to report their use, which is precisely what happened in this case.

more people get beaten to death by hand than with rifles. Again, you're trying to make public policy on statistical outliers, which is nearly always stupid policy. Even Kallend seems to get this now.



Now? Please pay attention. I have never advocated for a ban on "assault weapons". In fact, I wrote as much in a response to JohnRich when he was still around.

Not directly
but when you were once honest about what you would do, it was obvious that is what it would be, a ban

So stop trying to hide your real intentions
Everyone here knows better

Please post the link to any post where I have written such a thing?

Oh, I forgot, you've made the exact same claim many times previously, and EVERY TIME when challenged you can't find any post of mine that confirms your claim. NOT EVEN ONCE.

Put up or shut up.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.