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Bignugget

Japan to issue gravest warning since earthquake on Fukushima nuclear plant leaks

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http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/21/world/asia/japan-nuclear-leak-warning/index.html?hpt=hp_t3


I in no way claim to be able to clean up a nuclear plant after it melts down....I treat that a lot like gun control. Easier to handle if we just don't have any.

But...

They claim they cannot figure out where 300 tons of water are leaking from? And they will not be able to stop the leaks??

I was a maintenance man for a few years for some apartments. Found my fair share of elusive water leaks.

"I'm sorry I don't know where its leaking from, I will just leave you this bucket" wouldn't work very well with pissed off residents.

A few techniques I found to work well:

Locate where the water is presenting itself as a leak.....in this case somewhere in the rock/ground that is shooting into the ocean, probably not super easy....and the shit has been leaking for over a year so probably not gonna become any easier to see.

If that doesn't work, start narrowing sources down. Go turn other apartments water off etc. In this case, stop pumping water around in half the tanks for a day and watch for the tank that suddenly has 300 tons less water than it did!

Asians are supposed to be the smart ones!

WTF!?!

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I think you are ignoring one important aspect in your genius plan. Radiation.

The radiation levels are high enough that humans can't go everywhere they would need to in order to find the leak. Also the water is draining down from the mountains.

You really need to do more research before you stick your foot in your mouth.

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Bignugget was talking about finding a leak.
You bring up that it wont be quite so easy due to radiation...well in that case maybe we need to figure out a way to explore this situation so that radiation won't effect the human ( maybe a special suit?) or maybe send in a robot.
Bottom line is, we can't just let it continue to leak!
If they haven't done so already, then someone really needs to come up with a plan.
You must either be a politician or working on becoming one...knock everyone else's idea and categorize it as a "stupid idea" but don't have any plans of your own.

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Suits only work to a certain point, from what I have read it's beyond that point. The leak is underground and it's much more complicated then the simple scenario you or bignugget are describing.

Pretending that you know everything about the scenario and then Monday morning quarterbacking the situation is pretty silly.

Yes something needs to be done. Pretending that there is an easy solution and they are just too stupid see it is dumb and condescending.

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beowulf

I think you are ignoring one important aspect in your genius plan. Radiation.

The radiation levels are high enough that humans can't go everywhere they would need to in order to find the leak. Also the water is draining down from the mountains.

You really need to do more research before you stick your foot in your mouth.




I posted 2 good methods to find a leak.


1) Locate where the water is presenting itself as a leak (and follow it back)

2) Start narrowing sources down.


I never mentioned humans.

They used unmanned subs to fix the oil leak in the gulf....etc.

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Bignugget

***I think you are ignoring one important aspect in your genius plan. Radiation.

The radiation levels are high enough that humans can't go everywhere they would need to in order to find the leak. Also the water is draining down from the mountains.

You really need to do more research before you stick your foot in your mouth.




I posted 2 good methods to find a leak.


1) Locate where the water is presenting itself as a leak (and follow it back)

2) Start narrowing sources down.


I never mentioned humans.

They used unmanned subs to fix the oil leak in the gulf....etc.

You are speaking from ignorance. It's not a simple task like stopping the inflow of water. The water is underground and coming down from the mountains. There is no valve to just turn it off.

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I'm in no way trying to over simplify this disaster.
I'm just saying they have to figure out a way to stop it.
Ill be the first to admit that this is completely out of my league but the guys that are smart enough to have created this should really sit down and figure a way to stop it.
Start digging or move the mountain some other sort of way but the leak has to be stopped. Delusional I am not, I understand this will be a huge project and really not trying to over simplify.

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Well, I think they need to be honest with how bad the situation is and then ask for help. I am sure there are many very smart engineers that would be happy to travel to Japan to help come up with a solution. It seems to me that they have not been honest about the situation and are having trouble coming up with a solution. From what I have read there is no easy solution. One of the solutions suggested seems pretty stupid. It was freezing about a 1 mile long section of the ground as a dam, in order to stop the ground water leakage. That's a very temporary and expensive idea. You can't reasonably expect to maintain that long of a frozen length of ground for very long.

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Freezing the ground could actually work. They have to start trying different methods to get this thing stopped. I know ground freezing has been used to move really big/heavy stuff over ground that was too soft to handle the load. Money shouldn't be the determining factor.
Worst case scenario, someone's gonna have to start digging till they find where that waters coming from.

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Start digging or move the mountain some other sort of way but the leak has to be stopped. Delusional I am not, I understand this will be a huge project and really not trying to over simplify.



Saying you're not delusional right after suggesting moving a mountain?!!! That suggests you are delusional.

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swisschris62

Freezing the ground could actually work. They have to start trying different methods to get this thing stopped. I know ground freezing has been used to move really big/heavy stuff over ground that was too soft to handle the load. Money shouldn't be the determining factor.
Worst case scenario, someone's gonna have to start digging till they find where that waters coming from.



Money is always a determining factor. Keeping a 1 mile long swath of land frozen indefinitely is extremely expensive and is not likely to stop the water indefinitely.

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normiss

OMG.
How many mountains have no water control???
We must do SOMETHING!



I know.

Lets ban the mountains.

Without the mountains there would be no problem.

While we are at it, lets ban the water too.

The founding fathers only intended the water of the time to be used, not the water we have today.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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beowulf

***Freezing the ground could actually work. They have to start trying different methods to get this thing stopped. I know ground freezing has been used to move really big/heavy stuff over ground that was too soft to handle the load. Money shouldn't be the determining factor.
Worst case scenario, someone's gonna have to start digging till they find where that waters coming from.



Money is always a determining factor. Keeping a 1 mile long swath of land frozen indefinitely is extremely expensive and is not likely to stop the water indefinitely.

Ground freezing is not all that expensive in the grand scheme.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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beowulf

One of the solutions suggested seems pretty stupid. It was freezing about a 1 mile long section of the ground as a dam, in order to stop the ground water leakage. That's a very temporary and expensive idea. You can't reasonably expect to maintain that long of a frozen length of ground for very long.



Barrier technologies like this can work as a temporary measure. The problem isn't the energy required to maintain the barrier, it's the fact that the source doesn't magically stop adding to the problem just because there's an artificial aquitard in place. A chemical barrier (as opposed to physical, like ice) can be more effective by restricting plume migration long enough for contaminants to be precipitated, oxidized, or otherwise rendered less hazardous or less mobile. In this particular case, I doubt either method would be sufficiently effective to justify the time and expense of installation. Those resources would be better spent on more promising technologies.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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it's the fact that the source doesn't magically stop adding to the problem just because there's an artificial aquitard in place.



That was what I was thinking of and maintaining a frozen dam indefinitely didn't seem possible. Having a dam would mean creating a lake that continuously increases in size. So the dam would have to increase in size to keep up with the in flow of water.

I keep thinking of friends of mine that complained of a water leak in their kitchen. The apartment complex maintenance men's solution was to use duct tape to stop the leak. Creating a frozen dam is similar.

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You ever been to an open pit mine?
They move mountains...in fact they don't just move the mountain, they leave a small canyon size hole when they are done.
It sounds to me like your just being negative again...
I'm pretty sure they could make reasonable assumptions as to where that water is coming from...maybe we could start digging there. Maybe before they dig they could freeze that area and see if it effects what comes out on the other end.
They could freeze the ground as deep as they need to. How effective would it be? Well we're talking about finding a water source and stopping it, so freezing might just work.
Again I don't agree with you regarding the money. Not getting this stopped in the long run will cost way more money and its still gonna have to be stopped. Your not suggesting we just sit and wait for the water source to dry up are you?
If they came to you and asked you for an idea to getting this thing stopped, what would you suggest?

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Well, I think they need to be honest with how bad the situation is and then ask for help. I am sure there are many very smart engineers that would be happy to travel to Japan to help come up with a solution.




I already provided my solution.

Open pit mines don't compare to actual mountains.

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beowulf

How expensive do you think it would be? How effective would it be?



It depends on what tech you use.

My guess is a Billion or so per mile.

I believe it would be very effective in determining where the leak is.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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swisschris62


They could freeze the ground as deep as they need to. How effective would it be? Well we're talking about finding a water source and stopping it, so freezing might just work.
Again I don't agree with you regarding the money. Not getting this stopped in the long run will cost way more money and its still gonna have to be stopped. Your not suggesting we just sit and wait for the water source to dry up are you?



The primary contaminant at this point is tritium, which is, quite simply, radioactive hydrogen. It will not precipitate out or adsorb to much of anything...it goes where water goes, including through evaporation. On the plus side, it's not a particularly hazardous or long-lived isotope, and current contamination levels in seawater are quite safe. I read that the highest detected concentration to date is around 3,800 Bq/L, which is about 5 times the standard for drinking water in the US, but only half of the drinking water standard in Canada and one fifth of the WHO's standard. It also sounds like there's some Sr-90 being released, which is a bit more hazardous, but also easily removed by conventional pump & treat systems.

Quote

If they came to you and asked you for an idea to getting this thing stopped, what would you suggest?



I would place fuel removal/stabilization highest on my priority list. If no cooling water is needed, the source can be dramatically reduced. Tritium this close to the ocean? I'd go with natural attenuation. It's really not that big of a deal. I'm unaware of the strontium concentrations, but if high enough to warrant concern, a cookie cutter pump & treat system using a synthetic resin like Purolite could be operational in a very short period of time.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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They sure can't keep up with the problem by continuing to bottle the stuff. No telling how big a mess they would have on their hands if another earth quake came along and broke open those tanks.
The only long term solution seems to be to stop the water from its source otherwise ground freezing and dams will all eventually be overcome by the continuing water flow.
Freezing sounds like a real good way of finding the source without having to move a mountain.

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beowulf

******I think you are ignoring one important aspect in your genius plan. Radiation.

The radiation levels are high enough that humans can't go everywhere they would need to in order to find the leak. Also the water is draining down from the mountains.

You really need to do more research before you stick your foot in your mouth.




I posted 2 good methods to find a leak.


1) Locate where the water is presenting itself as a leak (and follow it back)

2) Start narrowing sources down.


I never mentioned humans.

They used unmanned subs to fix the oil leak in the gulf....etc.

You are speaking from ignorance. It's not a simple task like stopping the inflow of water. The water is underground and coming down from the mountains. There is no valve to just turn it off.


From the article:

""It's a very difficult situation because we don't know exactly know where the leak is coming from.""

And...

"In response to the latest leakage of 300 tons of toxic water, a TEPCO spokesman said Wednesday the company has finished removing radioactive water from a leaky tank and transferred it to another tank at the plant."



so it sounded to me like they have found some leaky shit, that is leaking onto the ground and into the groundwater....they just haven't found it all.

The water coming off the mountains isn't radioactive, its picking shit up as it flows under the plant....as I understand it..

.so fixing the leaks at the plant seemed like a logical first step to me....(admittedly not a nuclear scientist as I said at the start)

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