DOMA Struck Down

[billvon 2,380]

>Why does it have to be fear? Why can't it just be a choice? That is the point I am
>trying to make here.

It doesn't have to be fear. For some people, it was. For most people nowadays they don't need to make that decision. They can be with the people they are attracted to. And to me that's a very good thing.

>Nope, I would tell that person the pilot wasn't smart or skilled enough to prevent the
>stall-spin to begin with. He made the wrong choice.

So you'd use your experience to tell them they were wrong.

And here you are, a straight guy, telling other posters - posters who are gay and who have lived through decisions that you can only imagine - that you know more about their choices than they did.

Can you see why they might think of you as the whuffo in this case?

[skinnay 0]

twatterpilot

******
I am a middle aged, married, straight, childless, white man. I am persecuted more than any other group on this planet.

You should make late night infomercials to take donations that help these poor poor first-world heterosexual white males.

Really? That is what you come back with? Is that what you took away from that statement?

And y'all think I am close minded?

Let's start slinging shit...yeah if that works for you, knock yourself out.

No man, I believe you. Its an absolute tragedy how straight white males are persecuted. The blame is just unbearable and I am so so so sorry. Please remember tonight that my thoughts are with you. As a straight white male, I have also experienced persecution.. I once got lost and ended up in a predominantly black neighborhood. When I asked for directions, a man ridiculed my penny loafers and salmon polo tshirt, I believe it was racially motivated. It's persecution like this that we cannot stand for, we must stay strong and stay together. Have no fear my white brother, WE MUST NO LONGER STAND FOR PERSECUTION!!

[DanG 1]

Quote

I am a middle aged, married, straight, childless, white man.

Me too!

Quote

I am persecuted more than any other group on this planet.

Really? I feel lucky as shit. I was also born in America to parents who loved me. I ain't got no complaints. If you think we are the most persecuted group on the planet, you need to get out more.

- Dan G

[twatterpilot 0]

billvon

>Why does it have to be fear? Why can't it just be a choice? That is the point I am
>trying to make here.

It doesn't have to be fear. For some people, it was. For most people nowadays they don't need to make that decision. They can be with the people they are attracted to. And to me that's a very good thing.

I agree, that is a very good thing.

>Nope, I would tell that person the pilot wasn't smart or skilled enough to prevent the
>stall-spin to begin with. He made the wrong choice.

So you'd use your experience to tell them they were wrong.

Nope I would use my experience as a professional to advise the person that the pilot was wrong. That persons opinion was never called into question. Where did I say the person making the statement was wrong?

And here you are, a straight guy, telling other posters - posters who are gay and who have lived through decisions that you can only imagine - that you know more about their choices than they did.

Can you see why they might think of you as the whuffo in this case?

How do you know that me, as an individual, have never been faced with having to make difficult choices before? That is very closed minded. Have you ever had to make a choice about which child you rescue from a burning building? Or which person you do CPR on when there are two of them and and only one of you? To say that only gays have tough things to face in their life is a crock of BS and you know it. You are going to sit here and tell me that you have lived through all of my decisions? Decisions that only I can imagine?

Unlike some people apparently, I actually do have an open mind. Can the gay posters on here understand that there are actually other viewpoints in this world that may disagree with theirs and those other viewpoints, whether right or not, warrant discussion and hold legitimate value, much as their viewpoint does? And I never said I know more, you are trying to put words in my mouth. I just said that there are many sides to a discussion. If the gay posters on here cannot accept that others have a legitimate alternative view to theirs, then they are the hypocrites. Not me.

I am enjoying an open minded, legitimate discussion, and not reverting to name calling or childish behavior. Just merely attempting to get others to understand that their view isn't the only acceptable view.

Apparently having an opposing viewpoint is no good? Sounds awful liberal/democrat to me. Conservatives don't like guns, we don't buy one, liberals don't like guns, no one should be allowed to have one. Conservatives don't like a TV show, we change the channel, liberals don't like a show, they demand it be removed from the air. If you are straight, you MUST be anti-gay. If you are straight you can never understand the gay viewpoint. Does that make sense?

Or do people like me, who aren't gay, deserve to get the school yard bullshit routine like skinnay thinks is okay?

Oh skinnay, go piss up a rope. I don't need your bullshit. If you are going to feed the sterotype by calling names and behaving like a child, then you are no better than the psycho Westboro Baptist Church freaks.

Airline Transport Pilot, Multi-Engine Land, DHC-8
Commercial Multi-Engine Sea, Single Engine Land
Private Glider

[twatterpilot 0]

DanG

Quote

I am a middle aged, married, straight, childless, white man.

Me too!

Quote

I am persecuted more than any other group on this planet.

Really? I feel lucky as shit. I was also born in America to parents who loved me. I ain't got no complaints. If you think we are the most persecuted group on the planet, you need to get out more.

I don't feel lucky. I earned everything I have. And I was actually trying to prove a point. Not actually spell out a particular issue.

Think about it though. Can you go walk into Walmart and call a black guy the N word and get away with it? Nope. Can you tell a black guy to their face or on the internet that they deserve to die because they are black? Nope.

But, if you are black you can walk around walmart and call me a "crazy ass cracka" you can tell me "your gonna die cracka" etc etc etc. Or you can go on twitter and threaten Zimmermans life, and the life of white people and never get a single visit from the authorities.

You as a white man cannot go on the internet and say anything derogatory, lest you get locked up. Hell a kid in WV wears an NRA t shirt and they lock him up. It's bullshit and you know it.

And apparently, you cannot offer an opposing viewpoint of homosexuals when you are heterosexual without getting everyone's panties all up in a twist either.

Airline Transport Pilot, Multi-Engine Land, DHC-8
Commercial Multi-Engine Sea, Single Engine Land
Private Glider

[stevebabin 0]

twatterpilot

***

Quote

I am a middle aged, married, straight, childless, white man.

Me too!

Quote

I am persecuted more than any other group on this planet.

Really? I feel lucky as shit. I was also born in America to parents who loved me. I ain't got no complaints. If you think we are the most persecuted group on the planet, you need to get out more.

I don't feel lucky. I earned everything I have. And I was actually trying to prove a point. Not actually spell out a particular issue.

Think about it though. Can you go walk into Walmart and call a black guy the N word and get away with it? Nope. Can you tell a black guy to their face or on the internet that they deserve to die because they are black? Nope.

But, if you are black you can walk around walmart and call me a "crazy ass cracka" you can tell me "your gonna die cracka" etc etc etc. Or you can go on twitter and threaten Zimmermans life, and the life of white people and never get a single visit from the authorities.

You as a white man cannot go on the internet and say anything derogatory, lest you get locked up. Hell a kid in WV wears an NRA t shirt and they lock him up. It's bullshit and you know it.

And apparently, you cannot offer an opposing viewpoint of homosexuals when you are heterosexual without getting everyone's panties all up in a twist either.
The problem isn't that you're voicing your opinion. The problem is that you're wrong.
Being gay is not a choice.

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[billvon 2,380]

>How do you know that me, as an individual, have never been faced with having to
>make difficult choices before?

You've never had to make decisions about expressing your sexuality because your sexuality was never criminalized. You've never had to "come out of the closet." From your own statement. Thus there are things about being gay you're not going to understand as well as someone who has had to do those things.

>Unlike some people apparently, I actually do have an open mind.

Then perhaps open it to learning from people who have actually made the decisions you are hypothesizing about.

Again, imagine that whuffo non-pilot coming onto your airplane and telling you that you were doing everything wrong. You shouldn't trim for takeoff, you should trim all the way nose up so you climb faster. You shouldn't land with flaps, they might drag on the runway.

Would you appreciate his open mind? Or would you perhaps suggest he watches someone actually fly an airplane before he starts in with his opinions?

>Apparently having an opposing viewpoint is no good?

Having an opposing opinion is fine.

However, if I said "you are secretly gay" - I suspect you would take an issue with that. Do I know better than you what your sexual orientation is? No. That's not an opinion, it's a mistake. (Well, technically it's an opinion, but it would be a very stupid one.)

And telling gay people what decisions they made is akin to me telling you you are secretly gay.

> Conservatives don't like guns, we don't buy one,
> liberals don't like guns, no one should be allowed to have one.

Fun game, often played here on Speaker's Corner.

Liberals don't like abortions, don't get one.
Conservatives don't like abortions, outlaw them.

Liberals are straight. That's fine, everyone's different.
Conservatives are straight. We need a constitutional amendment to outlaw gay marriage.

Liberals don't like a TV show. Change the channel.
Conservatives don't like a TV show. Outlaw the profanity they use.

A liberal speaks English. Cool.
A conservative speaks English. Ban all other languages on official forms.

Liberals worry about the future. Provide clean air and water for our kids.
Conservatives worry about the future. Let corporations pollute as much as they like.

Etc etc. Yes, there's plenty of extremist comparisons you can make on both sides.

(And if you wrote your list and thought it was a righteous list, and read that list and your blood pressure went through the roof - you're probably buying into the dem/repub propaganda a bit too much.)

But back to the topic at hand -

>If you are straight, you MUST be anti-gay.

I'm straight. I'm not anti-gay. Most straight people I know aren't anti-gay. So not sure where you are coming from there.

[billvon 2,380]

> Can you go walk into Walmart and call a black guy the N word and get away with it?

Again, if you really think that not being able to insult people in a Wal-Mart means that you are "more persecuted more than any other group on this planet" then you have never even seen persecution.

Go to Hamdallaye in Niger and live there as one of the few white people amongst a small city in Africa. Go with a gay friend to Saudi Arabia. Go to Cape Town with a black friend. See if your opinion of oppression changes.

> Hell a kid in WV wears an NRA t shirt and they lock him up.

Yep. And a black man goes out for a walk in Mississippi and they kill him. If only he understood what it's like to be oppressed as badly as you are.

[twatterpilot 0]

billvon

>How do you know that me, as an individual, have never been faced with having to
>make difficult choices before?

You've never had to make decisions about expressing your sexuality because your sexuality was never criminalized. You've never had to "come out of the closet." From your own statement. Thus there are things about being gay you're not going to understand as well as someone who has had to do those things.

>Unlike some people apparently, I actually do have an open mind.

Then perhaps open it to learning from people who have actually made the decisions you are hypothesizing about.

Again, imagine that whuffo non-pilot coming onto your airplane and telling you that you were doing everything wrong. You shouldn't trim for takeoff, you should trim all the way nose up so you climb faster. You shouldn't land with flaps, they might drag on the runway.

Would you appreciate his open mind? Or would you perhaps suggest he watches someone actually fly an airplane before he starts in with his opinions?

>Apparently having an opposing viewpoint is no good?

Having an opposing opinion is fine.

However, if I said "you are secretly gay" - I suspect you would take an issue with that. Do I know better than you what your sexual orientation is? No. That's not an opinion, it's a mistake. (Well, technically it's an opinion, but it would be a very stupid one.)

And telling gay people what decisions they made is akin to me telling you you are secretly gay.

> Conservatives don't like guns, we don't buy one,
> liberals don't like guns, no one should be allowed to have one.

Fun game, often played here on Speaker's Corner.

Liberals don't like abortions, don't get one.
Conservatives don't like abortions, outlaw them.

Liberals are straight. That's fine, everyone's different.
Conservatives are straight. We need a constitutional amendment to outlaw gay marriage.

Liberals don't like a TV show. Change the channel.
Conservatives don't like a TV show. Outlaw the profanity they use.

A liberal speaks English. Cool.
A conservative speaks English. Ban all other languages on official forms.

Liberals worry about the future. Provide clean air and water for our kids.
Conservatives worry about the future. Let corporations pollute as much as they like.

Etc etc. Yes, there's plenty of extremist comparisons you can make on both sides.

(And if you wrote your list and thought it was a righteous list, and read that list and your blood pressure went through the roof - you're probably buying into the dem/repub propaganda a bit too much.)

But back to the topic at hand -

>If you are straight, you MUST be anti-gay.

I'm straight. I'm not anti-gay. Most straight people I know aren't anti-gay. So not sure where you are coming from there.

You have reinforced everything I am trying to say.

You are straight, how do you know what it is like to have your sexuality criminalized? You are making the same type of argument I am, just from the other angle.

If you thought I was secretly gay I wouldn't have issue with it. You would be wrong, but I wouldn't have an issue with it. Just like I could assume you were in the closet based on your viewpoint.

The liberal conservative tennis match is a fun game to play. I have my opinion and I am comfortable with that.

I think it is funny, I guess I am a conservative, but I am pro-choice, up to 20 weeks. I think that is a fair compromise. And knowing what I know about anatomy and biology as a medic, a legitimate compromise. I am also 100% pro business. And, as having been involved in the family company, and my own, we as business people tend to conserve, recycle, and not pollute like the liberals think we do because it impacts the bottom line. Waste and pollution are expensive. I don't care if they use profanity or nudity. If a parent don't want the kids watching it, it is the parents responsibility to not allow it. I want a flat tax, I don't believe in government run education, you get knocked up, you damn well better be able to afford to pay the kids way through school. Sure I don't mind helping out a bit, but I don't want to raise the kid on taxpayers backs. You go on welfare, you pass a drug test, get sterilized, and work on highway crews or some other public service to help offset the burden on the taxpayers. I want big ass fences on the borders, I want illegals sent home, I want to stop sending cash overseas to ungrateful nations, I want to drill for oil...lots of it. I want nuke plants, hydro power, solar and wind and tidal. I want coal plants too. I want veterans to never be homeless, I want affordable medical care, but not mandatory medical care. I want doctors to stop having to pay half million a year in malpractice insurance because a bunch of asshole lawyers need to make money. I want drug companies to charge a fair price for meds, I want holistic medicine to come back to the forefront of treatment. But I understand that modern medicine is still relevant. I want products to be made in the USA, I want people to have to show ID to vote, I want any one to be able to marry anyone they want, and I want to be able to speak my mind freely if I chose. I want society to start accepting responsibility for its actions, and not to blame society for the actions of an individual. I want to eradicate radical islam from the planet, I want people to practice whatever religion they want without prosecution. Providing they don't kill in the name of that religion. I want groups like the boy scouts to have the freedom to deny entry into the group because they don't agree with a lifestyle. And not to be sued and forced into doing it. It is not discrimination, it is a private club. Gays can form the Gay Scouts of America if they want. The BSA folded to public opinion and pressure, and that was wrong. They should never have been put in that position. Just like if a Catholic Hospital doesn't want to be forced into providing abortions and birth control coverage, they shouldn't have to. But guess what, Obamacare mandates they do. BUT if you are Muslim, you don't have to get obamacare. See forced on one group, but not the other.


Liberals started the Censorship board. Democrats started the KKK. Liberals fight against capital punishment, yet demand abortion.

See, the whole thing, the idea behind separation of political views, sexuality etc. is a load of bullshit.

One person cannot be lumped into any one group.

And I always have people getting on my airplane and telling me I am doing something wrong. They are called skydivers!

I think you and I are really reading the same book here, just not on the same page.

As far as the You must be anti gay if you are straight comment, that was a comment directed towards the people who think that, not directed at you in particular.

I am done, going to bed.

Airline Transport Pilot, Multi-Engine Land, DHC-8
Commercial Multi-Engine Sea, Single Engine Land
Private Glider

[twatterpilot 0]

billvon

> Can you go walk into Walmart and call a black guy the N word and get away with it?

Again, if you really think that not being able to insult people in a Wal-Mart means that you are "more persecuted more than any other group on this planet" then you have never even seen persecution.

Go to Hamdallaye in Niger and live there as one of the few white people amongst a small city in Africa. Go with a gay friend to Saudi Arabia. Go to Cape Town with a black friend. See if your opinion of oppression changes.

> Hell a kid in WV wears an NRA t shirt and they lock him up.

Yep. And a black man goes out for a walk in Mississippi and they kill him. If only he understood what it's like to be oppressed as badly as you are.

Again, you are missing the point of the conversation. The point I am trying to make is that persecution goes both ways. Some experience it with outright actions, others experience it from ideals, beliefs and stereotypes.

Just like you are attacking me for having a ever so slightly different view from yours, that is a form of persecution. I view it no differently than a black man would for being jacked up by the cops for wandering around a rich neighborhood. You jacked me up for having a different opinion from you. I offered up a different paradigm and was immediately told I was wrong and stupid. How is that any different?

And honestly, when was the last time a black man simply went for a walk and got killed for it? Really? I am not oppressed. I feel we are judged to a different standard.

I will repeat, why is it okay for a black person to publicly threaten a white person, or wear a trevon shirt at the BET awards, and nothing gets said or done, yet if a white person publicly threatens a black person or wore a Zimmerman shirt, that person would be crucified in the court of public opinion.

It is a double standard. One that should not exist. One that is disguised as political correctness.

Airline Transport Pilot, Multi-Engine Land, DHC-8
Commercial Multi-Engine Sea, Single Engine Land
Private Glider

[twatterpilot 0]

stevebabin

******

Quote

I am a middle aged, married, straight, childless, white man.

Me too!

Quote

I am persecuted more than any other group on this planet.

Really? I feel lucky as shit. I was also born in America to parents who loved me. I ain't got no complaints. If you think we are the most persecuted group on the planet, you need to get out more.

I don't feel lucky. I earned everything I have. And I was actually trying to prove a point. Not actually spell out a particular issue.

Think about it though. Can you go walk into Walmart and call a black guy the N word and get away with it? Nope. Can you tell a black guy to their face or on the internet that they deserve to die because they are black? Nope.

But, if you are black you can walk around walmart and call me a "crazy ass cracka" you can tell me "your gonna die cracka" etc etc etc. Or you can go on twitter and threaten Zimmermans life, and the life of white people and never get a single visit from the authorities.

You as a white man cannot go on the internet and say anything derogatory, lest you get locked up. Hell a kid in WV wears an NRA t shirt and they lock him up. It's bullshit and you know it.

And apparently, you cannot offer an opposing viewpoint of homosexuals when you are heterosexual without getting everyone's panties all up in a twist either.
The problem isn't that you're voicing your opinion. The problem is that you're wrong.
Being gay is not a choice.

Who the hell are you to say my opinion is wrong? The point I am trying to make is perhaps my opinion is wrong, but perhaps it is right, and yours is wrong. We don't know for certain about any of it. I personally think that it is a choice. I am entitled to that opinion, and if you don't like that opinion, well that is your choice. But you don't have the right to spout off and arbitrarily say that my opinion is wrong... "just cause"

That is demonstrating the typical knee jerk reactionary comment from a close minded person.

Stomping the feet, nose in the air, arms crossed, looking away, "YOU ARE WRONG, YOU ARE WRONG" Waa waa waaaaaaaaaa.

Did you for at least 1 second think, "hey he might have a point?" If you didn't, then you are close minded. You are unwilling to hear another person out, and give any credibility to an opposing argument.

Airline Transport Pilot, Multi-Engine Land, DHC-8
Commercial Multi-Engine Sea, Single Engine Land
Private Glider

[kelpdiver 2]

twatterpilot

I was using my desire for someone to show me 100% proof as an example of the ridiculousness of a purely one sided opinion.

Your debate tactics seem to backfire on you more often than they advance your argument.

Quote

I think that you will find that the increase in the prevalence of Down's may have something to do with the age of the mother. There is a very strong correlation in the data that shows when the mother is over 35 years old, the occurrence is far greater.

Case in point. You asked how homosexuality could be genetic without offspring, and here we're talking about Down's. How many such children are reproducing? And yet it continues.

Quote

If the theory that homosexuals have no choice in their orientation, then why would any of them reproduce? Don't they make the choice to mate with a member of the opposite sex?

Do I need to explain more biology to you? Surely you've heard that babies can be made without sexual intercourse.

Quote

I think that any extreme is a bad thing. I concede that while my belief is that is that homosexuality is largely based on nurture and individual choice, I agree that the possibility exists that genetics MIGHT play a part in that persons desires.

In other words, you're saying you *might* be full of shit, but will stick to your unfounded beliefs all the same because there's a statistical probability (0.01) that you might be right.

[stevebabin 0]

twatterpilot

*********

Quote

I am a middle aged, married, straight, childless, white man.

Me too!

Quote

I am persecuted more than any other group on this planet.

Really? I feel lucky as shit. I was also born in America to parents who loved me. I ain't got no complaints. If you think we are the most persecuted group on the planet, you need to get out more.

I don't feel lucky. I earned everything I have. And I was actually trying to prove a point. Not actually spell out a particular issue.

Think about it though. Can you go walk into Walmart and call a black guy the N word and get away with it? Nope. Can you tell a black guy to their face or on the internet that they deserve to die because they are black? Nope.

But, if you are black you can walk around walmart and call me a "crazy ass cracka" you can tell me "your gonna die cracka" etc etc etc. Or you can go on twitter and threaten Zimmermans life, and the life of white people and never get a single visit from the authorities.

You as a white man cannot go on the internet and say anything derogatory, lest you get locked up. Hell a kid in WV wears an NRA t shirt and they lock him up. It's bullshit and you know it.

And apparently, you cannot offer an opposing viewpoint of homosexuals when you are heterosexual without getting everyone's panties all up in a twist either.
The problem isn't that you're voicing your opinion. The problem is that you're wrong.
Being gay is not a choice.

Who the hell are you to say my opinion is wrong? The point I am trying to make is perhaps my opinion is wrong, but perhaps it is right, and yours is wrong. We don't know for certain about any of it. I personally think that it is a choice. I am entitled to that opinion, and if you don't like that opinion, well that is your choice. But you don't have the right to spout off and arbitrarily say that my opinion is wrong... "just cause"

That is demonstrating the typical knee jerk reactionary comment from a close minded person.

Stomping the feet, nose in the air, arms crossed, looking away, "YOU ARE WRONG, YOU ARE WRONG" Waa waa waaaaaaaaaa.

Did you for at least 1 second think, "hey he might have a point?" If you didn't, then you are close minded. You are unwilling to hear another person out, and give any credibility to an opposing argument.
It has nothing to do with opinion. You're wrong.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6519#.UdO1Sr4o7IU
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene
http://www.livescience.com/2623-gays-dont-extinct.html
http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/Pregnancy/3641

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17904267%2C16143171%2C12836730%2C10763427%2C9549243?dopt=DocSum

"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

[RonD1120 58]

stevebabin

The problem isn't that you're voicing your opinion. The problem is that you're wrong.
Being gay is not a choice.

Sex is always a choice.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[DanG 1]

Quote

Sex is always a choice.

There is a difference between a sexual orientation, and sexual behavior. You can't control your orientation. You can, of course, control your actions, but that doesn't change your orientation.

Anyway, the debate is not about gay sex, it is about legal gay marriage benefits. The two issues are only very loosely related.

- Dan G

[RonD1120 58]

stevebabin

It has nothing to do with opinion. You're wrong.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6519#.UdO1Sr4o7IU
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene
http://www.livescience.com/2623-gays-dont-extinct.html
http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/Pregnancy/3641

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17904267%2C16143171%2C12836730%2C10763427%2C9549243?dopt=DocSum

Makes a good case for pro-choice, does it not?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[DanG 1]

Quote

Makes a good case for pro-choice, does it not?

Be careful what you wish for. They say there's a religious gene, too.

- Dan G

[LyraM45 0]

Quote

Just like you are attacking me for having a ever so slightly different view from yours, that is a form of persecution.

I am REALLY confused on this whole you being attacked and persecuted thing. Can you provide me a few examples of why you feel so? When I hear persecution, I think of the Jews and stuff. You can't tell me things are that bad for you and the white man! Last I heard white men weren't being offed, or burned at stakes, or chained and drug behind trucks, etc, etc.


Did I miss something or maybe I just need another cup of coffee this morn?

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[twatterpilot 0]

kelpdiver

***
I was using my desire for someone to show me 100% proof as an example of the ridiculousness of a purely one sided opinion.

Your debate tactics seem to backfire on you more often than they advance your argument.

Nope, didn't backfire on me in my eyes. It seems to me that my view, while open to different possibilities and theories is under attack while those that are unwilling to open their mind to those alternative views are on the defense. It proves my point that those that are unwilling to at least entertain an alternative hypothesis are the hypocrites, not me.

Quote

I think that you will find that the increase in the prevalence of Down's may have something to do with the age of the mother. There is a very strong correlation in the data that shows when the mother is over 35 years old, the occurrence is far greater.

Case in point. You asked how homosexuality could be genetic without offspring, and here we're talking about Down's. How many such children are reproducing? And yet it continues.

Again, you made my point for me. If it were 100% genetically inherited, and the people who produced affected offspring stopped reproducing, the condition would disappear right? But it is not. Down's is a genetic mutation that occurs somewhat randomly. Perhaps homosexuality is the same? Interesting possibility. And from some of the studies listed in the next post, it seems this might explain some of this too.

Quote

If the theory that homosexuals have no choice in their orientation, then why would any of them reproduce? Don't they make the choice to mate with a member of the opposite sex?

Do I need to explain more biology to you? Surely you've heard that babies can be made without sexual intercourse.

Again, without bringing modern science into it. Remember, all this is strictly for the purposes of debate.

Quote

I think that any extreme is a bad thing. I concede that while my belief is that is that homosexuality is largely based on nurture and individual choice, I agree that the possibility exists that genetics MIGHT play a part in that persons desires.

In other words, you're saying you *might* be full of shit, but will stick to your unfounded beliefs all the same because there's a statistical probability (0.01) that you might be right.

Yup, I might be completely full of shit. Isn't that the point of a debate? Isn't it harder to debate a point one might not agree with versus one a person might be passionate about?This is the whole point of the exercise. I think you are catching on. My beliefs are not unfounded, they are just that, my beliefs. If I want to believe that my airplane flies because of PFM (pure fucking magic) and not physics, that is my prerogative no? I am wondering when y'all will figure out that I am not the enemy? Just someone proposing an alternative view to a topic. Again, reiterating my point, perhaps those of you that think someone is born gay is the only possible explanation or reason are the ones who have the unfounded belief?

Airline Transport Pilot, Multi-Engine Land, DHC-8
Commercial Multi-Engine Sea, Single Engine Land
Private Glider

[turtlespeed 212]

Quote

I would have to assume, to make it similar to the whole gay rights situation, that having the name north and it's associated meaning was somehow denying others of the same rights I have.

Not really where I was going.

The NAME North, not what is behind it with benefits. I don't dispute that the Gays should share the same benefits. They can get their benefits just the same if they call it George. Why change unless you are just trying to make them feel good?

Someone said earlier, [paraphrase]It doesn't matter what rights you give them, it will never be enough until they can say the word "Married". THAT is a social issue, not legal, and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with benefits and rights.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kallend 1,620]

I am 67 and planning to marry a 65 year old woman later this year.

Clearly we cannot reproduce. Apparently you disapprove of our marriage for this reason.

You need to mind your own business.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,620]

Isn't this a great thread.

It has revealed clearly who the BIGOTS are.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[twatterpilot 0]

stevebabin

************

Quote

I am a middle aged, married, straight, childless, white man.

Me too!

Quote

I am persecuted more than any other group on this planet.

Really? I feel lucky as shit. I was also born in America to parents who loved me. I ain't got no complaints. If you think we are the most persecuted group on the planet, you need to get out more.

I don't feel lucky. I earned everything I have. And I was actually trying to prove a point. Not actually spell out a particular issue.

Think about it though. Can you go walk into Walmart and call a black guy the N word and get away with it? Nope. Can you tell a black guy to their face or on the internet that they deserve to die because they are black? Nope.

But, if you are black you can walk around walmart and call me a "crazy ass cracka" you can tell me "your gonna die cracka" etc etc etc. Or you can go on twitter and threaten Zimmermans life, and the life of white people and never get a single visit from the authorities.

You as a white man cannot go on the internet and say anything derogatory, lest you get locked up. Hell a kid in WV wears an NRA t shirt and they lock him up. It's bullshit and you know it.

And apparently, you cannot offer an opposing viewpoint of homosexuals when you are heterosexual without getting everyone's panties all up in a twist either.
The problem isn't that you're voicing your opinion. The problem is that you're wrong.
Being gay is not a choice.

Who the hell are you to say my opinion is wrong? The point I am trying to make is perhaps my opinion is wrong, but perhaps it is right, and yours is wrong. We don't know for certain about any of it. I personally think that it is a choice. I am entitled to that opinion, and if you don't like that opinion, well that is your choice. But you don't have the right to spout off and arbitrarily say that my opinion is wrong... "just cause"

That is demonstrating the typical knee jerk reactionary comment from a close minded person.

Stomping the feet, nose in the air, arms crossed, looking away, "YOU ARE WRONG, YOU ARE WRONG" Waa waa waaaaaaaaaa.

Did you for at least 1 second think, "hey he might have a point?" If you didn't, then you are close minded. You are unwilling to hear another person out, and give any credibility to an opposing argument.
It has nothing to do with opinion. You're wrong.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6519#.UdO1Sr4o7IU

Proving my point, thank you.

"Italian geneticists may have explained how genes apparently linked to male homosexuality survive, despite gay men seldom having children. Their findings also undermine the theory of a single "gay gene"."


"This is a novel finding," says Simon LeVay, a neuroscientist and commentator on sexuality at Stanford University in California. "We think of it as genes for male homosexuality', but it might really be genes for sexual attraction to men. These could predispose men towards homosexuality and women towards & hyper-heterosexuality', causing women to have more sex with men and thus have more offspring."

Very interesting. What about lesbians then?

Their findings also support earlier findings that when mothers have several sons, the younger ones are progressively more likely to be gay. This might be due to effects changes to the mother's immune system with each son they carry.

But Camperio-Ciani calculates the contribution of this effect to male homosexuality at 7% at most. So together, he says, the "maternal" and "immune" effects only account for 21% of male homosexuality, leaving 79% of the causation still a mystery.

This leaves a major role for environmental factors, or perhaps more genetic factors. "Genes must develop in an environment, so if the environment changes, genes go in a new direction," he says. "Our findings are only one piece in a much larger puzzle on the nature of human sexuality."

Again, proving my point. My argument that choice is somehow is involved has just been proven. Environmental factors are choice. You can chose to change your environment. The study you posted trying to prove me wrong has proven my theory.

I will concede that it might not be an individuals choice, but that of the parents or others choices. Thus removing the choice from the individual and it then being outside influence that determined that individuals sexual orientation.



http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene

Again, proving my point.

"Since sexual orientation is such a complex trait, we're never going to find any one gene that determines whether someone is gay or not," says Mustanski. "It's going to be a combination of various genes acting together as well as possibly interacting with environmental influences."

Previous studies in male twins have suggested that between 40%-60% of the variability in sexual orientation is due to genes. The rest is thought to be due to environment and possibly other biologic but nongenetic causes.


http://www.livescience.com/2623-gays-dont-extinct.html

And again,

The question of whether homosexuality is genetically inherited has been perplexing scientists for years. While many researchers now agree homosexuality is probably caused by a mixture of nature and nurture, they are still hard pressed to explain the particulars.

Even if this sexually antagonistic genetic system is at work, it can only account for a portion of the overall causes of homosexuality in men, Camperio-Ciani said. Other factors, both genetic and social, likely also play a part.

"I think it's almost beyond a doubt that genes have some influence," said Ray Blanchard, a researcher at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, who studies the effect of birth order in predicting whether a male will be born homosexual. "My personal view is that there is probably more than one biological mechanism contributing toward homosexuality. I think it's also safe to say that there is at least one non-genetic influence."


http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/Pregnancy/3641

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17904267%2C16143171%2C12836730%2C10763427%2C9549243?dopt=DocSum


I stand by my view that it cannot be proven that homosexuality is predetermined solely by an individuals genetic makeup. Even the research you posted agrees with me. I am open to the fact that genetics may play a part in someones sexual orientation, however, I still believe that choices are made towards one orientation or another. While I am open to the fact that genetics MIGHT play a small role in orientation, are you open to the fact that choice and environment play a part as well? All this research does not take lesbians into account? Why? Because the science only focuses on the males. They can only identify a genetic predisposition to male attraction, not female attraction.

Airline Transport Pilot, Multi-Engine Land, DHC-8
Commercial Multi-Engine Sea, Single Engine Land
Private Glider

[twatterpilot 0]

LyraM45

Quote

Just like you are attacking me for having a ever so slightly different view from yours, that is a form of persecution.

I am REALLY confused on this whole you being attacked and persecuted thing. Can you provide me a few examples of why you feel so? When I hear persecution, I think of the Jews and stuff. You can't tell me things are that bad for you and the white man! Last I heard white men weren't being offed, or burned at stakes, or chained and drug behind trucks, etc, etc.


Did I miss something or maybe I just need another cup of coffee this morn?

You missed something. I was just being argumentative. Stop reading so far into it.

Airline Transport Pilot, Multi-Engine Land, DHC-8
Commercial Multi-Engine Sea, Single Engine Land
Private Glider

[twatterpilot 0]

kallend

I am 67 and planning to marry a 65 year old woman later this year.

Clearly we cannot reproduce. Apparently you disapprove of our marriage for this reason.

You need to mind your own business.

Not only do I approve, I am in the same situation. I married a woman 12 years older than myself. By choice. She already had her kids, and I never wanted any. By choice.

And, again, you misunderstand. I never disapproved of anyone getting married. I was trying to make a point way back, a lot of postings ago, that it never should have been an issue. People in society should never have denied the rights in the first place. Prop 8 never should have been put forth, I supported the lower courts decision to overturn it, but I can also respect that voters took what they perceived to be a social issue and made an effort to legislate it. The whole thing was a ton of bullshit, it never should have been an issue to begin with.

However, both sides should have come together and come to a solution, not tied up millions in taxpayers dollars in endless litigation.

The only people who won in this were the lawyers.

And you need to stop taking everything so damn personal. It is a public debate. Nothing more.

Airline Transport Pilot, Multi-Engine Land, DHC-8
Commercial Multi-Engine Sea, Single Engine Land
Private Glider