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livendive

Tesla repays federal loan nearly 10 years early

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>Normiss's point here was regarding the subsidies provided for electric cars and
>bilvon pretended to not understand that.

Incorrect. I was pointing out that we are all paying subsidies for other people's chosen forms of transportation - more expensive bridges for heavier vehicles, free air traffic control for air travel, vehicle subsidies for EV's, tax breaks for big SUV's (although that has been reduced of late) etc. We do this because we figure there are benefits for bridges capable of handling very heavy traffic, ATC services provided free of charge and new technologies that do not require oil.

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beowulf

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>Why won't you contribute $10,000 towards my new truck???

I do! I pay for roads that are way overbuilt for my needs so that you can take your 10 ton trailers over roads and bridges. But since that helps not only you but also truckers, construction equipment etc I don't mind paying it.




Normiss's point here was regarding the subsidies provided for electric cars and bilvon pretended to not understand that.



Billvon correctly pointed out that use of large vehicles is also often subsidized in the US. It's not as though EVs are the only vehicles on the road being subsidized.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

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The subsidies for electric cars are an attempt get people to buy something that isn't economically viable in the first place. That's a far cry from engineering bridges to handle heavy loads, which are necessary for industry. "free air traffic control for air travel", it isn't free. Our taxes pay for that.
Tax breaks for SUV's is a bad idea and isn't near as much as the subsidies for electric cars. It doesn't compare.

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Thank you.


For a LOT of working stiff, using a truck that is capable of towing tons isn't a choice nor an option.
It's also not as much weight as some folks think it is.

A lot of the new 5th wheel campers easily hit those numbers.
Average towables - around 5 tons.
Boats...medium sized trailered boats? Just under that.
I expect to buy a boat in the 8-10,000 lb range sometime in the not to distant future. That's really not much - a standard pickup will haul it fine.
I understand we all pay subsidies for the daily function of our society and economy.
Electrics still aren't there yet.
Thanks for us all paying the extra highway tax on fuel used in vehicles that are not used on those public roads.
Really makes tax time a little more pleasant in writing off those taxes paid.

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For a LOT of working stiff, using a truck that is capable of towing tons isn't a choice nor an option.
It's also not as much weight as some folks think it is.

A lot of the new 5th wheel campers easily hit those numbers.
Average towables - around 5 tons.
Boats...medium sized trailered boats? Just under that.
I expect to buy a boat in the 8-10,000 lb range sometime in the not to distant future.



We don't have the same definition of what a working stiff is. Nothing wrong with having the right tool for the right thing, but that's not you're average consumer need.
Remster

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Boats were a #30 BILLION dollar industry last year (that's a wee bit more than Tesla Motors) and while RV sales (of all types) ARE off by around 30% from the last figures I saw, these are clearly in fairly high demand.
These are not rich people toys.
These are working stiff toys.
I don't see anything but rednecks in a lot of campgrounds we have been too. - please notice the wording there :P

A lot of trucks are work trucks - some aren't I get that.

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They might as well.
According to Bill's numbers, he's already paying $10k a year in highway taxes, and now another $10k a year for the Tesla.
A mobile home makes a lot more sense than a battery car.
A FANCY battery car at that.


I love the way we all twist in here.
I never mentioned poor people as I assume the vast majority of them cannot afford a large to vehicle, a Tesla, nor a boat or camper.
If you look at the ownership of boats and rv's, you'll find it's fairly similar to most other items we humans own.
It crosses a lot of boundaries.

Yet our gooberment still feels the need to subsidize those business channels that line their pockets the most.
Like Tesla.

They still one of the top shorted stocks???
;)

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billvon

>Normiss's point here was regarding the subsidies provided for electric cars and
>bilvon pretended to not understand that.

Incorrect. I was pointing out that we are all paying subsidies for other people's chosen forms of transportation - more expensive bridges for heavier vehicles, free air traffic control for air travel, vehicle subsidies for EV's, tax breaks for big SUV's (although that has been reduced of late) etc. We do this because we figure there are benefits for bridges capable of handling very heavy traffic, ATC services provided free of charge and new technologies that do not require oil.



You left out the massive subsidies for oil itself (which seems germane to the conversation). To the point, it's hard to talk about the merits of subsidies to new energy tech while ignoring the high costs of the subsidies and indirect costs of the status quo energy.

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beowulf


Tax breaks for SUV's is a bad idea and isn't near as much as the subsidies for electric cars. It doesn't compare.



it used to be called the Hummer Tax Loophole as you could write off the entire cost- which certainly exceeds the EV tax credit. Even today, it still looks like it allowed expensing up to 25k for a 6000-14000 GVWR vehicle.

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normiss


A lot of the new 5th wheel campers easily hit those numbers.
Average towables - around 5 tons.
Boats...medium sized trailered boats? Just under that.
I expect to buy a boat in the 8-10,000 lb range sometime in the not to distant future. That's really not much - a standard pickup will haul it fine.



8000lb seems a bit of the heavy side for a common trailed boat. I see ballpark figures of 4000-4500 for a 20' ski boat + trailer. What does 8000lbs get you? Are we at the 5% level yet?

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I find most of the ski boats (family boats/fish and ski) to be around 2500 dry, maybe another 800 loaded and wet.

A 20-24 foot cuddy cabin seems to easily double that.
Add a few more option and some more power...you can easily hit 7500 dry.

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normiss

I find most of the ski boats (family boats/fish and ski) to be around 2500 dry, maybe another 800 loaded and wet.

A 20-24 foot cuddy cabin seems to easily double that.
Add a few more option and some more power...you can easily hit 7500 dry.



You do realize that the post you made said "10 tons" which if I'm not mistaken is 20,000 pounds.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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normiss

Thank you.


For a LOT of working stiff, using a truck that is capable of towing tons isn't a choice nor an option.
It's also not as much weight as some folks think it is.

A lot of the new 5th wheel campers easily hit those numbers.
Average towables - around 5 tons.
Boats...medium sized trailered boats? Just under that.
I expect to buy a boat in the 8-10,000 lb range sometime in the not to distant future. That's really not much - a standard pickup will haul it fine.



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I, like most Americans, cannot afford a Tesla



Hmmmm. I call bullshit. You just have different priorities (which, incidentally, is fine)
Some people will buy a nice car, you prefer a 5th wheel and/or a boat.
Never try to eat more than you can lift

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Battery hybrids are still foolishly expensive IMO.



If taxi drivers are using them, then they work.

Lots of Prius and Camry hybrid taxis out there now.

It takes a lot longer for a general consumer to see the benefits, for now.

I believe the argument that electric cars are not viable, is similar to the argument a decade or so ago that digital cameras will never be as good as film, while using a early model 2 mega pixel model as an example.

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>The subsidies for electric cars are an attempt get people to buy something that
>isn't economically viable in the first place.

Yes. Specifically it is an attempt to get a new technology over the rather steep barriers to entry that exist in the auto industry.

>That's a far cry from engineering bridges to handle heavy loads, which are
>necessary for industry.

They sure are - and those industries could build the roads they need. But the government thought "hmm, it would help many people to have common high capacity roads, even if most people don't use that capacity." So they built them to provide for the common welfare of the people of the United States.

>"free air traffic control for air travel", it isn't free. Our taxes pay for that.

Agreed. As they pay for EV tax breaks and roads and bridges.

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>These are not rich people toys. These are working stiff toys.

No worries; I have no problem paying for the road capacity to haul your toys around so you can play with em in the water. In return you'll be asked to pay to get an industry started that will help ensure your kids can drive at all.

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kelpdiver

***Yup.
Me.
Only me.
No other person in this country needs a large work truck.
Those trucks you see on the roads don't really exist.
:S
You should get out of the land of fruits and nuts more often.



So you're still proposing a standard that is needed by 1% of the market (or do you want to argue it's 2%) and is not met by virtually every vehicle for sale. All those SUVs in LA that never even see dirt, never mind offroad, aren't able to pull 5 tons either.

I mean, it's a great way to fuck up a discussion with this canard, but other wise it's a pretty stupid argument. The diesel delivery trucks and semis aren't going to disappear anytime soon. What happens with hybrids and EVs is basically irrelevant to their future in the next ten to twenty years. (I believe hybrids are already starting to enter the truck world because of their high torque at stop).

Actually, diesel is very quickly being supplemented (not replaced) with Compressed Natural Gas. CNG filling stations are popping up all over the place, and CNG semi trucks are becoming more and more common. IIRC, Port of Los Angeles is requiring the trucks pulling containers in and out of there to be CNG (Maybe not all of them, but a lot of them). It does a lot to reduce pollution.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Specifically it is an attempt to get a new technology over the rather steep barriers to entry that exist in the auto industry.

Part of the discussion that has not been mentioned yet is that most other developed countries (and some not so developed) are investing heavily in technology development. Unlike times past, we now are dealing with a global marketplace. Most countries realize that electric vehicles will only increase in importance in the marketplace; additionally there is a potential military strategic interest in being able to reduce dependence on petroleum products for powering vehicles. Countries that hold patents and that gain a head start in production will have a big advantage over those that are late to the table. Some people may think that "American Exceptionalism" means that US industry, operating entirely on private capital, can compete with heavily subsidized foreign competition, but there is little evidence that this is true. The US has long subsidized technology development, under the guise of NASA or the military. Who believes that airplanes would be just as advanced as they currently are if the only market force at play was passenger transport?

Currently much of the "public" side of the equation in the US is in the form of public/private collaborations where a proportionally small investment of public dollars, usually in the form of loan guarantees, is used to leverage much larger private investments. Financial institutions and venture capitalists are pretty risk adverse, and also are looking for short term return on investment. Unless an investment is a very sure thing, most would be very reluctant to invest in an R&D venture that might or might not pay off in 20 years. A guarantee that they won't lose 100% of their investment goes a long way towards loosening the purse strings. The track record so far, less than 10% default rate, suggests that the government is not handing money out by the truckload (as was the case in Iraq), but they are exercising due diligence. Public/private collaborations seem a reasonable approach to me. Purists who insist on zero public investment can stand on principle if they wish, but they will reap a future where the US produces market-niche refinements of old technology while other countries produce the ground-breaking advances that create new markets. IMHO

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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If taxi drivers are using them, then they work. I believe the argument that electric cars are not viable, is similar to the argument a decade or so ago that digital cameras will never be as good as film.



Yes where I live some of the taxi fleet are using Hybrids. But I have not seen any EV taxis. At least not yet. There is a big difference between the two. Nothing wrong with EVs when all you do is drive around the city on short trips and never venture into the countryside away from the city. Of course certain UN types want to ban humans from the countryside and what exists today will be different than what exists 20, 50, 100 years from now, assuming humanity does not destroy itself in that time frame.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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quade

***I find most of the ski boats (family boats/fish and ski) to be around 2500 dry, maybe another 800 loaded and wet.

A 20-24 foot cuddy cabin seems to easily double that.
Add a few more option and some more power...you can easily hit 7500 dry.



You do realize that the post you made said "10 tons" which if I'm not mistaken is 20,000 pounds.

I have a 32' express cruiser with a 12' beam. Two engines, full head, galley, two queen beds, holds 150 gallons of fuel. I'm supposed to pull an oversize load permit to tow it. Fully loaded with fuel, water, etc, the total load is a little shy of 15k lbs.

Blues
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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