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kallend

College costs and student debt

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re; "cut off federal support for these for-profit schools , when they fail to graduate students....etc etc..."


Can't really blame the schools IF the student (s) lacks ambition or otherwise just CAN'T do the work....

many MANY kids are well Unprepared for what it TAKES to accomplish ANy college degree...especially those who "coasted through high School".....

I often wonder WHy we don't have a sensible Alternative to heading Right Off to college,,,, 3 months after H S Graduation....:|

Sure kids wanna "get out from their parents home" wanna "stretch their wings" " wanna be on their Own".....
But tooo many fall prey to the lure of freedom.... and have no real idea,,, of HOW to handle it.... So they give in to vices,,, they learn how to skip classes,, they mis prioritize many aspects of higher education... and for some,, they finally determine that "college just ISN'T for ME..." :o:S[:/]>:(
Yikes.. Now they are OUT not just for the money,,, but they have blown 2 or 3 years where they could have been working.... and earning,,( even if it was small wage earnings) their folks have spent Most ALL of the "college savings" and the kids are back at home living in the rec room and raiding the refrigerator,,,,, driving the parents nuts....

How about some sort of
community job corps??? say an 18 month term.. when HS kids. get placed into programs which Include, dorm style living quarters, learning how to be part of a team, getting some small degree of discipline, learning that OTHERS are equally valued in this world....( toooo many kids come OUT of HS... having been pampered,,, having had their SELF-Esteem blown waaaay out of proportion, to the point of narcissism).

Such a job corps could be used far and wide.. for everything from Litter pick-up to disaster relief efforts to city beautification projects....Part of the training might include exposure to the Skilled Trades,,,,an explanation of just WHAT sort of career options REALLY exist, and the Chance that AFTER the persons "enlistment" he or she would have a bit of a Better idea.. of what the world is really like, Outside of Mom and Dads (often palatial ) home and way of life....
It could be a real eye-opener for some....ANd a good transitionary program.. to help kids begin to Grow Up.....
Then.... afterwards. they could choose to either NOW enroll at a college. OR pursue a skilled trades position, Or become a community activist and advocate.......
I dunno.... tough call.... Just glad that Our family has accomplished advanced degrees and so are NOT faced with this looming crisis anymore. The kids are knocking down the small loans for which we qualified,,, one with a bachelors degree and one with a masters... the loans were needed,,, to supplement the $$$$ which we tediously saved since they were little... ( that's why dad was Always.... NOT jumping the "latest & greatest " rig and why we weren't driving late model vehicles )... Good news is that each child has UNDER 5 grand left to pay....and never miss the monthly obligation..


Still I wonder WHY our savings account pays a half percent interest... while the college loans demand 6.5 %....

USURY ??? perhaps??....[:/]

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jgoose71

******SHHHHH!!!!!!

I think I heard Kallend say something about taking a pay cut for the good of the students.....



Do a little research. Faculty salaries are a rather small slice of the pie.

Yes, I'm sure that $100-$200K Salary is small compared to a $500 Million budget... 1%er... :ph34r:

That is not what your average faculty member makes. That would be professors who are many years into their careers, who are leaders in their area of research, and who work at Research 1 universities. I just accepted a faculty position and I can tell you my salary won't be anywhere close to 6 figures and what I'm getting is pretty standard, actually on the higher end, for a new professor (I had another offer that was about 10K lower than the one I accepted).

I can't think of any other field that requires so much education and training and pays so little.

Back to the student loan issue. Student loans aren't necessarily evil. Without student loans I wouldn't have a Ph.D. because I would never have been able to get a bachelor's degree. Over the many years of education I've had numerous scholarships, fellowships, but also loans. I'll be paying off loans for awhile but I don't have any regrets. Those loans enabled me to accomplish my goals and get a great job where I get to have my own research lab and continue the work that I am passionate about. Even with loan payments I'll still make a decent living and be able to support myself and my daughter.

Sure student loans can be abused. Borrowing 200K for a bachelor's degree is just irresponsible. However, that is not a typical student loan debt. I would have to double check but I think the average is around 25K.

edit - forgot to add- Yes, I agree with most people that cost of higher education has skyrocketed over the past 20 years or so (but it isn't due to faculty salaries). A college degree may not be worth it for everyone. If someone chooses to take on debt they need to be aware of what the payments will be and take steps to reduce the amount of loans they need (get a job, look for scholarships, get lots of roommates, etc).


.

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>That is not what your average faculty member makes. That would be professors
>who are many years into their careers, who are leaders in their area of research,
>and who work at Research 1 universities. I just accepted a faculty position . . .

You're bringing real world experience into Speaker's Corner? That's not how we do it here! Messes with all the cubbyholes we have for people.

(kidding, thanks for the info)

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billvon

>That is not what your average faculty member makes. That would be professors
>who are many years into their careers, who are leaders in their area of research,
>and who work at Research 1 universities. I just accepted a faculty position . . .

You're bringing real world experience into Speaker's Corner? That's not how we do it here! Messes with all the cubbyholes we have for people.

(kidding, thanks for the info)



Oh, I forgot this is Speaker's Corner. I'll stay away from facts and reason.

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sandi

Sure student loans can be abused. Borrowing 200K for a bachelor's degree is just irresponsible. However, that is not a typical student loan debt. I would have to double check but I think the average is around 25K.



That's about the cost of a new, reasonably equipped Honda Civic. I'd say the bachelor's degree will give a much better return on investment.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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jgoose71

******SHHHHH!!!!!!

I think I heard Kallend say something about taking a pay cut for the good of the students.....



Do a little research. Faculty salaries are a rather small slice of the pie.

Yes, I'm sure that $100-$200K Salary is small compared to a $500 Million budget... 1%er... :ph34r:

It's OK, ignorance is curable.

Perhaps you should have paid more attention in school.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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sandi


Sure student loans can be abused. Borrowing 200K for a bachelor's degree is just irresponsible. However, that is not a typical student loan debt. I would have to double check but I think the average is around 25K.



The mean would not be the best choice to use here. Better to look to the quintiles, and to separate out public from private schools.

That said, the arena where the debt situation is most ridiculous is with the for profit 4 year schools and the trade schools (art, cooking, photography, etc) that promise careers that just don't exist in the numbers to support the number of students. These schools are basically stealing from the taxpayers.

If you're going to a private school that takes anyone with a checkbook, you're probably in trouble.

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sandi

***>That is not what your average faculty member makes. That would be professors
>who are many years into their careers, who are leaders in their area of research,
>and who work at Research 1 universities. I just accepted a faculty position . . .

You're bringing real world experience into Speaker's Corner? That's not how we do it here! Messes with all the cubbyholes we have for people.

(kidding, thanks for the info)



Oh, I forgot this is Speaker's Corner. I'll stay away from facts and reason.

OK, I was intrigued with your post. I had to look up your field of study, "Cognitive Neuroscience" if I’m correct. OK, big words with lots of other big words associated within its definition. I would think with such education you would be paid at least 6 figures, funny how that works out.

Tinkering with the brain:S

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billvon

>Plus, if you're not taking math or physics you're pretty much dead in the water
>with a liberal arts degree......

Top ten happiest occupations per Forbes:

Clergy
Firefighters
Physical therapists
Authors
Special ed teachers
Primary school teachers
Artists
Psychologists
Financial services specialists
Operating engineers (think Homer Simpson)

Lots of liberal arts types.

Also keep in mind that it's very easy to replace grunt engineers and programmers. (Most of my value I give to my company comes out of the right side of my brain, not my left.) It's a lot harder to outsource a good writer.



When did happiness figure into having a job. I suppose a pimp likes his job. Not sure any political persuasion though for that line of work.
Math, physics are in high demand... multiple offers for internships and first year jobs. One kid I know is getting a law degree, free after having first worked at USPTO, now law firm, to be patent attorney and SHE WAS ALL MATH. Sure, liberal arts grads will do fine as teachers, and not a bad profession at all AS IT IS A GOV JOB. And gov jobs are the greatest right now.

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OHCHUTE

***>Plus, if you're not taking math or physics you're pretty much dead in the water
>with a liberal arts degree......

Top ten happiest occupations per Forbes:

Clergy
Firefighters
Physical therapists
Authors
Special ed teachers
Primary school teachers
Artists
Psychologists
Financial services specialists
Operating engineers (think Homer Simpson)

Lots of liberal arts types.

Also keep in mind that it's very easy to replace grunt engineers and programmers. (Most of my value I give to my company comes out of the right side of my brain, not my left.) It's a lot harder to outsource a good writer.



When did happiness figure into having a job. I suppose a pimp likes his job. Not sure any political persuasion though for that line of work.
Math, physics are in high demand... multiple offers for internships and first year jobs. One kid I know is getting a law degree, free after having first worked at USPTO, now law firm, to be patent attorney and SHE WAS ALL MATH. Sure, liberal arts grads will do fine as teachers, and not a bad profession at all AS IT IS A GOV JOB. And gov jobs are the greatest right now.

If you want return on investment, go to a techie school:

www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2013
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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>When did happiness figure into having a job.

Most unemployed people are less happy. A job doesn't make you happy but it goes a long way towards keeping you from being too unhappy.

> And gov jobs are the greatest right now.

Sorry charlie:

===================
No recovery for U.S. government workers
By Jennifer Liberto
CNNMoney March 8, 2013: 12:50 PM ET

WASHINGTON (CNNMoney)
Federal government jobs fell by 4,200 in February, the fifth month in a row those jobs have been zapped from the economy. And, thanks to the automatic budget cuts, it's going to get worse.

In contrast to gains in the private sector, a total of 33,000 federal worker jobs have been lost since January 2012 -- and that does not include jobs at the Postal Service, which is in the midst of a crisis of its own.

=====================

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kelpdiver

***
If you want return on investment, go to a techie school:

www.payscale.com/college-education-value-2013



Better qualify that. I didn't see Devry or ITT on the list.

WELL, OK. I consider both of them to be trade schools masquerading as universities. I was really referring to real colleges and universities.

(IIRC, DeVry came in at #114)
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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kallend


WELL, OK. I consider both of them to be trade schools masquerading as universities. I was really referring to real colleges and universities.

(IIRC, DeVry came in at #114)



Earlier I phrased them as 'private schools with no meaningful admissions barrier.' Now it is possible for the right personality type to go to a trade school and profit well - but they are the type that would have done well with the 4 year college as well. So many of their classmates are not, and they get taken for tens of thousands.

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kelpdiver

***
WELL, OK. I consider both of them to be trade schools masquerading as universities. I was really referring to real colleges and universities.

(IIRC, DeVry came in at #114)



Earlier I phrased them as 'private schools with no meaningful admissions barrier.' Now it is possible for the right personality type to go to a trade school and profit well - but they are the type that would have done well with the 4 year college as well. So many of their classmates are not, and they get taken for tens of thousands.

I find those private trade schools are very much over priced. you can get the same training for a fraction of the cost at a community college usually. the community college doesnt advertise during daytime tv though. so many might not know that.

in some areas industry partners with community colleges and even pays a lot of the tuition depending on demand. ive seen that with commercial diving and with trucking.

community colleges are great IMO. i wish more young people understood their value.
"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

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community colleges are great IMO. i wish more young people understood their value

I completely agree. Among other things, they're flexible enough to respond to local market conditions, and add courses faster than some other institutions (and delete them when their appeal has waned).

In Texas, they're dirt cheap. If you go to a CC, you're not doing yourself any favors if your long-term goal is to go to Harvard or someplace like that. But if your long-term goal is to get a BA, it's a great and cost-effective way to start.

Never mind that they also offer all kinds of tech-school stuff, including nursing, fixin' stuff, etc.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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wmw999

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community colleges are great IMO. i wish more young people understood their value

I completely agree. Among other things, they're flexible enough to respond to local market conditions, and add courses faster than some other institutions (and delete them when their appeal has waned).

In Texas, they're dirt cheap. If you go to a CC, you're not doing yourself any favors if your long-term goal is to go to Harvard or someplace like that. But if your long-term goal is to get a BA, it's a great and cost-effective way to start.

Never mind that they also offer all kinds of tech-school stuff, including nursing, fixin' stuff, etc.

Wendy P.



Would agree. My oldest got her BS at University of Houston and works with my sister, her Aunt in the insurance business. My middle child went to a trade school i.e. the Harvard of Hair...Paul Mitchell to be a hair stylist. She works at a well know Salon on FM518 in Friendsword and pulled down 45K last year. Not bad money for a 23. year old.

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weekender


I find those private trade schools are very much over priced. you can get the same training for a fraction of the cost at a community college usually. the community college doesnt advertise during daytime tv though. so many might not know that.



The challenge that can exist at the CC has been funding and (over) utilization, but no doubt it's a better value by far.

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If I'm spending 200K on an education...I would have already determined my career path to ensure I'm going to make a damn good living, and the payoff will far out weigh the cost of my student loan.




But what if the payoff wasn't tangible like that? What if somebody wanted to get a specialized degree and the payoff was being able to do a job you have a passion for, even if you know you will never be rich from it? I went to a private aeronautical school. I always had a passion for all things aviation and weather. I knew it would be a struggle to repay any loans I took out associated with the $150K price tab (trust me, I didn't take all of that out-- I got a lot of grants and scholarships, but still have a good chunk to repay), because lets face it, meteorologists aren't rich, and most young pilots aren't rich. BUT.... I enjoy what I do. I go to work every day and basically get paid to do what would be my major interest and hobby if I wasn't employed in this field. My student loan payments are just over $500/month, and it sucks, but going to work and not hating my job and/or life is absolutely priceless!
Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

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Yes, but what if you hadn't been able to get a job, or what if instead of $500/mo as a meteorologist, you were signed up to pay $1000/mo out of your salary as the 4th sous-chef?

Some sort of cost-vs-benefit really is worth it.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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weekender

******
WELL, OK. I consider both of them to be trade schools masquerading as universities. I was really referring to real colleges and universities.

(IIRC, DeVry came in at #114)



Earlier I phrased them as 'private schools with no meaningful admissions barrier.' Now it is possible for the right personality type to go to a trade school and profit well - but they are the type that would have done well with the 4 year college as well. So many of their classmates are not, and they get taken for tens of thousands.

I find those private trade schools are very much over priced. you can get the same training for a fraction of the cost at a community college usually. the community college doesnt advertise during daytime tv though. so many might not know that.

in some areas industry partners with community colleges and even pays a lot of the tuition depending on demand. ive seen that with commercial diving and with trucking.

community colleges are great IMO. i wish more young people understood their value.

I agree, and many students who want to go to 4 year schools would actually do better to go to a community college for a year or two and then transfer. Would save them a ton of money.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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kallend

***
I find those private trade schools are very much over priced. you can get the same training for a fraction of the cost at a community college usually. the community college doesnt advertise during daytime tv though. so many might not know that.

in some areas industry partners with community colleges and even pays a lot of the tuition depending on demand. ive seen that with commercial diving and with trucking.

community colleges are great IMO. i wish more young people understood their value.



I agree, and many students who want to go to 4 year schools would actually do better to go to a community college for a year or two and then transfer. Would save them a ton of money.

This. My progression...
- AAS in environmental restoration at a community college ($500/class)
- BS in energy & environmental quality at a city college ($900/class)
- Now pursuing a Master's in infrastructure planning & management at a state college. ($2k per class)

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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