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airtwardo

Rudely displaying a weapon?

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Both sides could have carried themselves better, although we didn't see what happened prior to the video so who knows which side gave the attitude first.

I think the police were further in the wrong though.
History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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I don't know about Texas but in NC, there is "Going armed to the terror of the public" which is a class 1 misdemeanor. Below are the 4 elements that must be met to charge someone with the crime.

Elements

A person guilty of this offense

(1) arms himself or herself with an unusual and dangerous weapon

(2) for the purpose of terrifying others and

(3) goes about on public highways

(4) in a manner to cause terror to the people.

Element 2 would seem to be the most difficult to meet. Without being required to meet that element it would seem as though any law abiding citizen could be charged for open carrying if another citizen called in and complained of someone open carrying a firearm in public.

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Yeah, that's the "brandishing" law in NC. Without assault by pointing, you still need some conduct indicating he means to terrify people. Walking around with a slung rifle in a place you're not barred from carrying is not going to meet the standard.

This officer in Texas lost his composure, was spewing legal gibberish, and made his whole department, and by extension every American LEO, look really bad.
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Yeah, that's the "brandishing" law in NC. Without assault by pointing, you still need some conduct indicating he means to terrify people. Walking around with a slung rifle in a place you're not barred from carrying is not going to meet the standard.

This officer in Texas lost his composure, was spewing legal gibberish, and made his whole department, and by extension every American LEO, look really bad.



Exactly! As someone else above also stated, we're not sure what may have taken place prior to the camera starting, but I can't see where the citizen was committing any crimes. With that being said, I can't see where he made the wisest decision by carrying an AR while taking a long walk down a public highway. He was bound to attract some unwanted attention.

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When did things change to where we arrest people for unwise decisions and bad attitude on charges that don't (as far as I can tell) exist in Texas law? Whiskey tango foxtrot, over.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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arms himself or herself with an unusual and dangerous weapon



:D Did they not realize the legal mischief they caused themselves by including the word "unusual"? I'd think a handgun, for example, would not qualify as unusual in NC. Oh well; so much for carrying my samurai sword around downtown Raleigh. Who'da known?

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For once, it's really not the poitician's fault.

Quote

http://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/?p=4022
This is a common law offense. State v. Dawson, 272 N.C. 535, 541-42 (1968); State v. Huntly, 25 N.C. 418, 418 (1843); State v. Staten, 32 N.C. App. 495, 496-97 (1977) (citing Dawson).



Unless you count judges as politicians (in NC they are elected).
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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When did things change to where we arrest people for unwise decisions and bad attitude on charges that don't (as far as I can tell) exist in Texas law? Whiskey tango foxtrot, over.



I think this officer got desperate after realizing he got his hands on someone that appeared to know a little about what he was talking about. It sounded like the officer said he was arresting the guy for resisting. From all the video footage I saw, I didn't see anything that would cause me to even charge someone with that. At most, the guy was argumentative, but rightfully so.

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For once, it's really not the poitician's fault.

Quote

http://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/?p=4022
This is a common law offense. State v. Dawson, 272 N.C. 535, 541-42 (1968); State v. Huntly, 25 N.C. 418, 418 (1843); State v. Staten, 32 N.C. App. 495, 496-97 (1977) (citing Dawson).



Unless you count judges as politicians (in NC they are elected).



I looked at the case blurbs in the page you linked. More intellectual dishonesty from judges in criminal cases. When I was a new attorney, at first I was surprised by its prevalence, then I was dismayed by it, then I was disgusted by it, then I became jaded by it. Now I've just come to acknowledge it as part of the corruption that is a side effect of governance. It's also the reason why when I was a newbie I aspired to be a judge; but now, you couldn't get me to don a robe at the point of a gun.

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Yeah, that's the "brandishing" law in NC. Without assault by pointing, you still need some conduct indicating he means to terrify people. Walking around with a slung rifle in a place you're not barred from carrying is not going to meet the standard.

This officer in Texas lost his composure, was spewing legal gibberish, and made his whole department, and by extension every American LEO, look really bad.



Exactly! As someone else above also stated, we're not sure what may have taken place prior to the camera starting, but I can't see where the citizen was committing any crimes. With that being said, I can't see where he made the wisest decision by carrying an AR while taking a long walk down a public highway. He was bound to attract some unwanted attention.



what is wrong with walking down a public with an AR? One of the most common rifles in America, it's not an unusual or an illegal weapon? Why can't he carry it? Especially if, as he said, their are cougars etc. around?
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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Yeah, that's the "brandishing" law in NC. Without assault by pointing, you still need some conduct indicating he means to terrify people. Walking around with a slung rifle in a place you're not barred from carrying is not going to meet the standard.

This officer in Texas lost his composure, was spewing legal gibberish, and made his whole department, and by extension every American LEO, look really bad.



Exactly! As someone else above also stated, we're not sure what may have taken place prior to the camera starting, but I can't see where the citizen was committing any crimes. With that being said, I can't see where he made the wisest decision by carrying an AR while taking a long walk down a public highway. He was bound to attract some unwanted attention.



what is wrong with walking down a public with an AR? One of the most common rifles in America, it's not an unusual or an illegal weapon? Why can't he carry it? Especially if, as he said, their are cougars etc. around?



I don't see anything wrong with it. However, it's not something that you commonly see and would therefore attract unwanted attention. Obviously it did in this case and a person (or multiple people) called the police about it.

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Yeah, that's the "brandishing" law in NC. Without assault by pointing, you still need some conduct indicating he means to terrify people. Walking around with a slung rifle in a place you're not barred from carrying is not going to meet the standard.

This officer in Texas lost his composure, was spewing legal gibberish, and made his whole department, and by extension every American LEO, look really bad.



Exactly! As someone else above also stated, we're not sure what may have taken place prior to the camera starting, but I can't see where the citizen was committing any crimes. With that being said, I can't see where he made the wisest decision by carrying an AR while taking a long walk down a public highway. He was bound to attract some unwanted attention.



what is wrong with walking down a public with an AR? One of the most common rifles in America, it's not an unusual or an illegal weapon? Why can't he carry it? Especially if, as he said, their are cougars etc. around?



I don't see anything wrong with it. However, it's not something that you commonly see and would therefore attract unwanted attention. Obviously it did in this case and a person (or multiple people) called the police about it.



from the link quoted above it seems the only people they mention had actually FIRED their weapons, in one case behind someone's car and in another at some buildings. Doesn;t seem like a firearm not even been carried at the ready, and not being brandished, would constitute an offence under that law.

That being said, it's a north carolina law, and I don't think that that's what he's being charged with. Furthermore, I highly doubt that he would do anything crazy before the camera started rolling, considering he was out walking with his son. And his son is a witness.

I would be fighting this all the way, and then suing the police over it. But that's something he'll have to figure out - the military may not want him to do that.

Sure is sad seeing this happen in Texas though. Whoever called in a complaint about him walking should be expelled from the state.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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After watching the entire video and reading the entire article, I think here is the relevant quote:
Quote

“‘Where you going with that rifle?’ he asked me. I said, ‘does it matter? Am I breaking any laws?’”


Now, I'm not exactly a genius and I AM a sometimes professional smart ass, but when a cop stops me and asks me a direct question, I know enough to not start fucking with him and THAT is where it all goes south.

It is pretty clear this guy, maybe while completely within his rights, was starting to fuck with the cop. He admits it. He says it right in that quote. The correct answer would have been something like, "As you can see from the pack on my back, we're on a hike. I'm carrying the rifle to protect myself from wild hogs and cougars. I ALSO HAVE A .45 ON MY LEFT HIP AND MY PERMIT TO CARRY IS IN MY POCKET."

It's not until WELL into the video after handcuffs and the sergeant shows up the man ever mentions the other concealed weapon. Now, I don't know about Texas, but I believe in most states it's considered good practice to inform the cop you're carrying a concealed weapon when they first start talking to you.
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Maybe I said something that can be misconstrued as me siding with the officer in this case. If so, that was not my intention. I posted the elements to a NC law where someone can be guilty of going armed to the terror of the public, but only if all 4 elements of the crime are met. In this guys case, as with most others' case, he doesn't seem to have met element number 2 (with the INTENT of terrifying others) and therefore shouldn't be charged with the crime. This is only hypothetically speaking as this is a NC law and this incident occurred in TX.

However, if this incident occurred in the town that I work, where someone was walking down the street with an AR slung across their shoulder, our dispatchers would be slammed with 911 calls. I would be required to investigate the call for service. I would have made voluntary contact with the guy to find out what his intentions are. I would have also politely asked him to put the weapon away as he is scaring the shit out of every passer by going down the road. Ultimately, that decision would have been his and if he declined to do so, our contact would have ended there so long as no crimes were being committed. I'll admit though, we don't have any danger of large predatory animals around here.

Don't forget though, the AR was not the only weapon he was carrying. He also had a .45 on his left side. Btw, a quick google search revealed an incident where a cougar attacked some horses. The game warden stated in his 11 years of experience he has never seen a cougar in the wild and that there's usually about 3 or 4 reported sightings per year. Not attacks, but sightings. Did the citizen really need an AR and a .45 for his hike down a public road with his son? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not.

I hate what the citizen is having to deal with and none of the above makes it ok for him to receive the kind of attention/inconvenience and possible rights violations that he did. However, he could've also avoided the whole incident if he had just decided to leave the AR at home. Especially in this day and age where a large portion of people automatically assume the worst when they see a person with a mean black rifle.

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After watching the entire video and reading the entire article, I think here is the relevant quote:

Quote

“‘Where you going with that rifle?’ he asked me. I said, ‘does it matter? Am I breaking any laws?’”


Now, I'm not exactly a genius and I AM a sometimes professional smart ass, but when a cop stops me and asks me a direct question, I know enough to not start fucking with him and THAT is where it all goes south.

It is pretty clear this guy, maybe while completely within his rights, was starting to fuck with the cop. He admits it. He says it right in that quote. The correct answer would have been something like, "As you can see from the pack on my back, we're on a hike. I'm carrying the rifle to protect myself from wild hogs and cougars. I ALSO HAVE A .45 ON MY LEFT HIP AND MY PERMIT TO CARRY IS IN MY POCKET."

It's not until WELL into the video after handcuffs and the sergeant shows up the man ever mentions the other concealed weapon. Now, I don't know about Texas, but I believe in most states it's considered good practice to inform the cop you're carrying a concealed weapon when they first start talking to you.



It's not only good practice here, but a requirement to notify LEO immediately upon being approached that you are carrying concealed.

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do know that when we went on military exercises out west, we always had one guy with live rounds in case of bears. I would never tell someone he couldn't carry a weapon if there is a possibility of encountering dangerous wildlife.

As far as in town, as you said, I can see that some people might call, but it looked like the country to me in that video. I live in the country. I have bears come to my bird feeders sometimes. I can absolutely see nothing wrong with carrying a legal weapon on a country road, but then that's just me.

WRT the North Carolina statute I also don't see how any weapon can be included as an unusual and dangerous weapon no matter how common, however I see the judges disagree with me. It seems to me that it would not be unusual to see a person with a concealed carry permit carrying, but again that;s just me and the judges seem to have come to a different conclusion.

I do however, still think I would encourage this guy to fight the charges and sue over it. We have actually had cases up here where police officers have had to sue other police forces over various things. Obviously there is a lot of pressure put on them from their superiors to drop the lawsuits, no matter how bad the treatment they received from the other police force was, but they have won such cases.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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When did things change to where we arrest people for unwise decisions and bad attitude on charges that don't (as far as I can tell) exist in Texas law? Whiskey tango foxtrot, over.



I think this officer got desperate after realizing he got his hands on someone that appeared to know a little about what he was talking about. It sounded like the officer said he was arresting the guy for resisting. From all the video footage I saw, I didn't see anything that would cause me to even charge someone with that. At most, the guy was argumentative, but rightfully so.



The guy did violate Texas law, but the cop handled it wrong.

The officer never should have approached him, he put himself and others in danger. If the guy is considered a threat, which a guy with a rifle slung in the SUL position would generally be considered, then a buffer of safety should have been used and the suspect disarmed with some distance and cover for the officer. What is typically called a "felony stop" in the police world.

What's the difference between this guy and the Black Panthers who were protesting in Texas with slung AK-47s a few years ago? The protestors had their weapons slung over their shoulders, not in a position used by the military and law enforcement as a "ready" or "patrol" position (such as the SUL).

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. The trial will eventually generate new case law in Texas and it will be really interesting to see what that outcome is.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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When did things change to where we arrest people for unwise decisions and bad attitude on charges that don't (as far as I can tell) exist in Texas law? Whiskey tango foxtrot, over.



I think this officer got desperate after realizing he got his hands on someone that appeared to know a little about what he was talking about. It sounded like the officer said he was arresting the guy for resisting. From all the video footage I saw, I didn't see anything that would cause me to even charge someone with that. At most, the guy was argumentative, but rightfully so.


The guy did violate Texas law, but the cop handled it wrong.

The officer never should have approached him, he put himself and others in danger. If the guy is considered a threat, which a guy with a rifle slung in the SUL position would generally be considered, then a buffer of safety should have been used and the suspect disarmed with some distance and cover for the officer. What is typically called a "felony stop" in the police world.

What's the difference between this guy and the Black Panthers who were protesting in Texas with slung AK-47s a few years ago? The protestors had their weapons slung over their shoulders, not in a position used by the military and law enforcement as a "ready" or "patrol" position (such as the SUL).

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. The trial will eventually generate new case law in Texas and it will be really interesting to see what that outcome is.



I was hoping you would chime in Dave...what law(s) were being violated?

- from an LEO's position I would think they almost 'had' to take him in at that point if for nothing else because they now have a heavily armed and pissed off person wandering about.

Were I the cop(s) here I wouldn't feel too safe handing the guy a loaded rifle and trying to drive away....call me chicken. ;)

I think all involved could have handled it better, maybe a lesson in there for both sides.










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When did things change to where we arrest people for unwise decisions and bad attitude on charges that don't (as far as I can tell) exist in Texas law? Whiskey tango foxtrot, over.



I think this officer got desperate after realizing he got his hands on someone that appeared to know a little about what he was talking about. It sounded like the officer said he was arresting the guy for resisting. From all the video footage I saw, I didn't see anything that would cause me to even charge someone with that. At most, the guy was argumentative, but rightfully so.



The guy did violate Texas law, but the cop handled it wrong.

The officer never should have approached him, he put himself and others in danger. If the guy is considered a threat, which a guy with a rifle slung in the SUL position would generally be considered, then a buffer of safety should have been used and the suspect disarmed with some distance and cover for the officer. What is typically called a "felony stop" in the police world.

What's the difference between this guy and the Black Panthers who were protesting in Texas with slung AK-47s a few years ago? The protestors had their weapons slung over their shoulders, not in a position used by the military and law enforcement as a "ready" or "patrol" position (such as the SUL).

It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. The trial will eventually generate new case law in Texas and it will be really interesting to see what that outcome is.



With the exception of Florida. our two states have the most reciprocity with other states regarding CCL. One of the first things taught in the CCW course is - If an officer stops you, the first thing you must do is tell the officer that you are CCL holder and that I am carrying a weapon. By extension of the CCL, in Oklahoma we have open carry. Therefore, if he had made the proclamation at the very beginning, I think this _might_ have been handled differently.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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I'm not sure what exact statutes he was charged with, but watching the video he did resist detention/arrest and he also was in violation of DOC (in regards to the firearm). Most DOC violations are class C, but displaying a weapon is a higher charge.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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I'm not sure what exact statutes he was charged with, but watching the video he did resist detention/arrest and he also was in violation of DOC (in regards to the firearm). Most DOC violations are class C, but displaying a weapon is a higher charge.



department of corrections violation?
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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