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steve1

Ammo Shortage

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Oh, no, no, no. That's bullshit. First YOU PROVE to me the amount of this exceptional and expensive ammo is out of line with what they would normally buy. Please. PROVE it with verifiable government purchase records. Use a couple of years worth of records to eliminate spikes.

PROVE what you've claimed as fact.



I just did

the DHS has ordered more ammo than the military would use in 10 years of the highest level of the Iraq war

Ammo the military can not use

Expensive hollow point ammo that is normally NOT used for practice

Why?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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DHS just started answering questions (originally posed weeks ago) as to why they put out the orders they did, and the answers just don't add up.



Why do a lot of people buy in larger bulk quantities rather than placing many smaller orders?



The amount they have ordered would stock the Iraq war for ten years
With ammo they can use in a war (hollow point)

And this calculation is made as if the military was using ammo at the highest point of the war

Why?



Serious, non-partisan answer:

What if Korea blows all to hell soon? Or something like it?

It may very well be someone's idea of sound logistical planning. I have no idea what the mil-ammo inventory situation was like either in the run-up to Gulf War I, or right after 9/11, or in the past 10 yr since 9/11. But if the US was having ammo supply/logistics issues because of the size of their inventory reserves, a newer plan to avoid that in the future may go a long way to explain it.

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hairs breath



Hair's breadth. The first word is a possessive, and the second word, breadth, means width. Ironically, a hair's breadth is roughly the thickness of foil.



No Hare's breath ,the halitosis of myxomatosis!

http://vi.sualize.us/first_rabbit_first_and_last_breath_art_kate_macdowell_picture_qr8q.html
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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Hair's breadth. The first word is a possessive, and the second word, breadth, means width. Ironically, a hair's breadth is roughly the thickness of foil.



Semantics, sounds like lawyers talk...LOL

Do you think 15+ Trillion of debt increasing is something to snicker at or is just some whack conspiracy?

Calculate the interest payments on that!

Printing money works for a short period of time but when confidence is lost in the dollar, the artificial value will crash. So for the US$ the crash will be worse than most others.

The dollar should not be worth what it is today, it is propped up by faith.

Talk to the Austrian economists, they seem to be the only ones that understand. They predicted the dot com bubble and the housing bubble bursts...

They were called whack jobs also at the time. Afterwards was there any recognition, did anyone learn?

I would not be so confident that widespread civil unrest is so far fetched or far away.

Why do you think they are purchasing thousands of armoured vehicles for use on american streets?

Land of the free?

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DHS just started answering questions (originally posed weeks ago) as to why they put out the orders they did, and the answers just don't add up.



Why do a lot of people buy in larger bulk quantities rather than placing many smaller orders?



The amount they have ordered would stock the Iraq war for ten years
With ammo they can use in a war (hollow point)

And this calculation is made as if the military was using ammo at the highest point of the war

Why?



Serious, non-partisan answer:

What if Korea blows all to hell soon? Or something like it?

It may very well be someone's idea of sound logistical planning. I have no idea what the mil-ammo inventory situation was like either in the run-up to Gulf War I, or right after 9/11, or in the past 10 yr since 9/11. But if the US was having ammo supply/logistics issues because of the size of their inventory reserves, a newer plan to avoid that in the future may go a long way to explain it.



Andy
The ammo being purchased CAN NOT BE USED by the military
It is hollow point ammo
Only ball ammo can be used by the military in a conflict
That is all they do use

the military used 7 million rounds a month at the heighth of the Iraq war
What the DHS is buying (ammo the military can not legally use) would last the military 10 years in this case

This ammo is NOT being purchased for the military
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Why do you think they are purchasing thousands of armoured vehicles for use on american streets?



Do you have any sound evidence of that?
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

July 2, 2008, Colorado Springs, Barak Obama.

Question is why does he want it and what will it be used for?
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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>On another note, WHY? Why is Ammo so scarce in the USA these days?

Because the NRA is very good at what it does - supporting the gun industry. And the panic they have whipped up over the "Obama will grab your guns!" did exactly what they intended it to do.

Now they just need another mass shooting and they'll be all set. "Well, yeah, it's real sad that all those kids are dead. But that's not important. What's important is that this will be an excuse to GRAB YOUR GUNS! So buy, buy, buy before it's too late!"

(or alternatively "we should arm the schools, and that will require you to buy, buy, buy!" Both work.)

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Do you have any sound evidence of that?


Here is a congressman discussing it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHsGEy-vfLk



Oh kay . . . but you do realize that's not evidence of anything other than a guy talking about it. Right?

It's not evidence of the government hoarding massive quantities of ammo beyond their normal use or a conspiracy to deprive citizens of ammo or any of the other half dozen tin-foil hat reasons people cite.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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He said that DHS must explain why they did it.

This included an order of 1.6 billion rounds of ammo.

Watch his body language when the question is asked, does it look as though this is the first time he has been told about it?

In saying so he is stating that he is aware of it, he acknowledges it and there is no doubt about it. He is a congressman after all.

This stuff is on the record, without the purchase orders you will not be satisfied. That is your denial.

Why is there even one of these MRAP's on the streets of America, there are photos of them all over the Internet.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1C1GGGE_enNZ527NZ527&q=dhs%20armored%20vehicles&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.44770516,d.aGc&biw=1092&bih=499&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=FcRhUZLnDqquiQeGtIDQBg

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Here in Westchester County, NY, you can get 1000 rounds for $800, if you have the right friends. :S



Wow!! last year I got 1000 rounds of lake city tracer .223/5.56 for $375 shipped..... I still have about 700 to 800 rounds left. Although with the Slide Fire stock on the AR those probably aren't gonna last long when the weather gets warmer. B|B|
Lovin every second of it!

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>On another note, WHY? Why is Ammo so scarce in the USA these days?

Because the NRA is very good at what it does - supporting the gun industry. And the panic they have whipped up over the "Obama will grab your guns!" did exactly what they intended it to do.

Now they just need another mass shooting and they'll be all set. "Well, yeah, it's real sad that all those kids are dead. But that's not important. What's important is that this will be an excuse to GRAB YOUR GUNS! So buy, buy, buy before it's too late!"

(or alternatively "we should arm the schools, and that will require you to buy, buy, buy!" Both work.)



Talk about tin foil hat.. the NRA isn't going out and convincing people to buy guns or ammunition. I am a member and the only thing they try to convince me to do is give them money so that they can defend the 2nd amendment. Politicians like Obama, Feinstein and Bloomberg have caused people to panic and buy up guns and ammunition. The NRA doesn't have any need to try and convince people that they want to ban guns. They do that by themselves.

The ammunition shortage is mostly due to panic buying by the public and not so much by the Government. The hollow point ammo being bought by DHS doesn't explain why target ball ammo is in short supply.

So basically Billvon your argument is entirely false.

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Here in Westchester County, NY, you can get 1000 rounds for $800, if you have the right friends. :S



Wow!! last year I got 1000 rounds of lake city tracer .223/5.56 for $375 shipped..... I still have about 700 to 800 rounds left. Although with the Slide Fire stock on the AR those probably aren't gonna last long when the weather gets warmer. B|B|


I wouldn't have any use for tracer rounds. All of the shooting ranges I go to don't allow tracer rounds. The range in Dallas just recently burned down because someone was using tracer rounds.

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DHS just started answering questions (originally posed weeks ago) as to why they put out the orders they did, and the answers just don't add up.



Why do a lot of people buy in larger bulk quantities rather than placing many smaller orders?



The amount they have ordered would stock the Iraq war for ten years
With ammo they can use in a war (hollow point)

And this calculation is made as if the military was using ammo at the highest point of the war

Why?



The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibits the use in international warfare of bullets which easily expand or flatten in the body.
Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

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DHS just started answering questions (originally posed weeks ago) as to why they put out the orders they did, and the answers just don't add up.



Why do a lot of people buy in larger bulk quantities rather than placing many smaller orders?



The amount they have ordered would stock the Iraq war for ten years
With ammo they can use in a war (hollow point)

And this calculation is made as if the military was using ammo at the highest point of the war

Why?



The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibits the use in international warfare of bullets which easily expand or flatten in the body.



You are correct
I meant to post ammo the can not use in a war
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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I think the ammo purchases are a bit ridiculous as pretty much all of the legislation being proposed relates to magazine size and cosmetic features of certain semi-automatic rifles. So while I can understand people buying up rifles and magazines larger than 10 rounds, ammo doesn't make sense. I was googling around for pending legislation, however, and I found this gem in the California Assembly...

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/13-14/bill/asm/ab_0001-0050/ab_48_bill_20130404_amended_asm_v97.pdf

As I read, here are some fun features...

- Extends ban on magazines that hold more than 10 rounds to include, "an oversize magazine body that appears to hold in excess of 10 rounds"

- "Anyone in this state, prior to selling, transferring, or otherwise furnishing ammunition to an individual or business entity in this state or any other state, shall ... Possess a license to sell ammunition ... and ... Submit a report to the Department of Justice for all of the transactions, in a manner to be determined by the department."

- The bill would require the department to alert local law enforcement entities in the community in which the purchaser resides if an individual purchaser who is not a peace officer obtains more than 3,000 rounds within a 5-day period.

Here's a news article about it that has a couple strange bits in there...

Quote

AB 48 also requires dealers selling ammunition to be licensed in the state, for federal and local officials to be notified when an individual purchases more than 3,000 bullets over a five-day period and prohibits the sale of kits that help convert conventional firearms into semi-automatic weapons.

“In the case of Aurora, Holmes had a history of mental illness, and amassed 6,000 rounds of ammunition in a four to five day period,” Skinner told the Daily News. “Under this law, local law enforcement would have been notified.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/california-advances-bill-requiring-id-buy-ammunition-article-1.1306133



So Holmes buys 6,000 rounds, goes to a theatre, fires off a couple hundred rounds, hits 70 people, and kills 12... and they want to create a new licensing and reporting system for ammo sales that makes it reportable (but notably, not illegal) to purchase more than 3000 rounds per week? And, also notably, their proposed system does not attempt to address online orders from out of state, which is how Holmes purchased the ammo.

Also, I don't know what, "kits that help convert conventional firearms into semi-automatic weapons" as mentioned in the news article are but, thankfully, there's no silly language like that in the bill.

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"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

July 2, 2008, Colorado Springs, Barak Obama.

Question is why does he want it and what will it be used for?



Damn good question. If ask for justification in the constitution, but I'm tired of hearing how the only important parts are general welfare, interstate commerce, and necessary and proper.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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Do you have any sound evidence of that?


Here is a congressman discussing it;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHsGEy-vfLk



Oh kay . . . but you do realize that's not evidence of anything other than a guy talking about it. Right?

It's not evidence of the government hoarding massive quantities of ammo beyond their normal use or a conspiracy to deprive citizens of ammo or any of the other half dozen tin-foil hat reasons people cite.



Right. Everyone is up in arms over shit DHS does everyday, and DHS can't or won't explain it. Congress is asking questions with simple answers and no one has thought to provide said simple answer. Does that make sense to you?

Have you come up with an explanation for how buying more expensive ammo is more cost effective than cheaper ammo that meets your needs?
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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Yeah I agree the ammo buying doesn't make sense, especially the panic buying of .22lr. I don't understand why people are panic buying ammo. But I don't think it's due to anything the NRA is saying or doing.

Maybe they were thinking of full auto conversion kits? Converting a semi auto to full auto is already illegal. It doesn't surprise me that the legislation proposed in California is so screwed up.

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Right. Even the title of this thread is misleading. It's not an "ammo shortage", it's a "ammo demand spike". Same thing happened when Obama was elected. So far, all of this has proven two things to me:

1. When some nutters with guns go crazy and kill a bunch of people, the government makes up laws that will have zero impact on nutters with guns, but make it more expensive for sane people with guns (fees for background checks, registering hi-cap mags, tax on bullets), and more expensive for sane people without guns (enforcing otherwise unenforceable laws with your tax money).

2. When the US government makes silly laws that have no impact on crime, the citizens of the US become retarded and fuel demand for things that aren't even related to those silly laws. Such as buying a whole bunch of ammo that isn't even targeted (hint, try buying .223 or .308, not handgun ammo). Or buying ammo, when they should be buying larger magazines. Or buying handguns, when they should be buying the soon-to-be-outlawed semi-auto rifles.

So, we have a government that does things which make no sense, and is governing a people which does things that make no sense. Is anyone surprised by this?
Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

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To be fair high capacity magazines were bought up very quickly. Handgun magazines are hard to find for most guns that have a greater then 10 round magazine. AR 15 magazines are becoming more available but they about twice the normal price or more.

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Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of smart people buying guns (and magazines). But there are a lot of people that can't get past vague generalities "Obama's takin' all our guns!", so they drive up the demand of everything out of irrational fear. It happened after the 2008 election, and then Obama made it easier to get guns.

Magazines are in the same boat as ammo. Cost is high now, they'll make more, and when the supply catches up to demand, prices will drop again. The only thing that would stop that is a federal law against certain magazine sizes. That could happen, but it's unlikely; as long as one State keeps them legal, manufacturers will still make them and they'll be legally or illegally imported to other States.
Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

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