Question regarding veterans and respect for them

[jakee 1,254]

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there is more to an adult conversation than the literal translation of words. any reasonable person knows what his intent was and why. those agreeing with his falsehood are piling on and defending him.

Nonsense, you're taking exactly the sort of reactionary pro-military viewpoint that he's talking about.

He's not saying that the only purpose of the military or the only job they do is go to other countries and kill people. He's saying exactly what he said, which is that the entry requirement is simply to be healthy enough to do that (and presumably smart enough to find the recruitment office) and therefore simply having been a member of the armed forces is not in itself anything special or noble or amazing.

So actually, when you look at it without the blinkers, his statement is about not making a judgement either way. You can be a veteran and be an amazing, selfless person, or an ordinary person, or a total dick. It's all open.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

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Every one of them deserves our respect.

Including the rapists, neo-nazis and murderers?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

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edit to add. it is NOT true. there are numerous requirements other than physical to join the military. easy example, for my commission i needed to study Military Science for 4 years. I had numerous academic tests. i am truly amazed i must defend the military from such obvious false claims.

Key word there is commission. Unless the US military has stopped recruiting anyone but officers I fail to see how your post has any bearing on the OP.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[airdvr 197]

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Every one of them deserves our respect.

Including the rapists, neo-nazis and murderers?

Don't be a dick.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[weekender 0]

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there is more to an adult conversation than the literal translation of words. any reasonable person knows what his intent was and why. those agreeing with his falsehood are piling on and defending him.

Nonsense, you're taking exactly the sort of reactionary pro-military viewpoint that he's talking about.

He's not saying that the only purpose of the military or the only job they do is go to other countries and kill people. He's saying exactly what he said, which is that the entry requirement is simply to be healthy enough to do that (and presumably smart enough to find the recruitment office) and therefore simply having been a member of the armed forces is not in itself anything special or noble or amazing.

So actually, when you look at it without the blinkers, his statement is about not making a judgement either way. You can be a veteran and be an amazing, selfless person, or an ordinary person, or a total dick. It's all open.

that is FALSE. there are more requirements than physical. i am defending the military from his and your false comments. my reaction is to a falsehood not an opinion. there is a difference.

the fact i side with the DZ and feel the veteran should have covered up or left, should be proof enough i am not reactionary.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[billvon 2,396]

>Most of you have no idea the sacrifice people in the military make on our behalf.

I have a very good idea; I worked with them for years. Some spend their time in the military defending the US in places their lives are at risk. I have a great deal of respect for them. Some spend their time mopping floors on a US base and trying to avoid their CO. I have less respect for them.

[airdvr 197]

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and therefore simply having been a member of the armed forces is not in itself anything special or noble or amazing.

We have a different viewpoint of what is special or amazing. Obviously the only thing you've ever committed to is cuffin' your carrot looking at pictures of the queen mum.

You should be ashamed, and I'll bet you wouldn't have the berries to say that in a group of enlisted persons. Big talker on the net.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[airdvr 197]

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>Most of you have no idea the sacrifice people in the military make on our behalf.

I have a very good idea; I worked with them for years. Some spend their time in the military defending the US in places their lives are at risk. I have a great deal of respect for them. Some spend their time mopping floors on a US base and trying to avoid their CO. I have less respect for them.

But they all made the commitment and the sacrifice. You might have less respect but you didn't say you had no respect.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[weekender 0]

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edit to add. it is NOT true. there are numerous requirements other than physical to join the military. easy example, for my commission i needed to study Military Science for 4 years. I had numerous academic tests. i am truly amazed i must defend the military from such obvious false claims.

Key word there is commission. Unless the US military has stopped recruiting anyone but officers I fail to see how your post has any bearing on the OP.

he did not make that distinction. he made a broad dishonest stereotype. i disproved him by giving a very simple example of how there are more than physical requirements.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[jakee 1,254]

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Every one of them deserves our respect.

Including the rapists, neo-nazis and murderers?

Don't be a dick.

Are you saying they don't exist, that they don't count or that you still respect them?

Or maybe you're saying that they're such a small percentage that I'm simply nitpicking for the sake of it, in which case I can just keep naming the groups of racists, sexists, thugs, thieves, liars and just plain arseholes who make up about the same amount of people in the military as they do in civilian life. A career choice doesn't make someone immune from responsibility for all the other shit they do with their life.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,396]

>But they all made the commitment and the sacrifice. You might have less respect but
>you didn't say you had no respect.

That depends on the person. I had very little respect for some of the people I met when I worked at McClellan. They were there simply because it was easier to keep them there than discharge them. To claim they were making any kind of sacrifice would be laughable; the biggest sacrifice they made was loitering on a military base instead of where they would prefer to loiter. But almost everyone deserves some respect.

Here are a few exceptions:

=====================
Iraq veteran convicted in Colorado murder of fellow soldier

On November 19, a Colorado jury found 25-year-old Iraq war veteran Louis Bressler guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. Bressler and two other former members of the Fort Carson-based 4th Brigade, 4th Division, Bruce Bastien and Kenneth Eastridge, were charged over the brutal killing of fellow veteran Kevin Shields in Colorado Springs on December 1, 2007.
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Iraq war veteran convicted in double murder

HOLLIDAYSBURG (AP) -- An Iraq war veteran was convicted Tuesday of first-degree murder in the shooting deaths of two people during a west-central Pennsylvania sandwich shop robbery . . . Nicholas Horner, 31, of Altoona for the shooting deaths of a clerk and a bystander during the April 2009 robbery, The Altoona Mirror reported.
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Robert Walters, Iraq War Veteran, Found Guilty Of First-Degree Murder

An Iraq War veteran was found guilty on Friday of murder in the first degree of his girlfriend Brittney Brashers, 22, but not guilty of soliciting the murder of his wife at the time, Elena Walters. Robert "Robbie" Walters, 25, was found guilty of beating Brashers to death after she didn't apologize for taking her top off in a Denver strip club and then staging a car crash on Yuma Street to cover up the incident. Walters even confessed the murder to his wife Elena, but was unaware she had recorded the conversation.
====================

[jakee 1,254]

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We have a different viewpoint of what is special or amazing. Obviously the only thing you've ever committed to is cuffin' your carrot looking at pictures of the queen mum.

Hey look, you're making the OPs point for him. Nice one

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You should be ashamed, and I'll bet you wouldn't have the berries to say that in a group of enlisted persons. Big talker on the net.

I jump at a military DZ. At least half the people there any given weekend are military. And you'd be amazed at how many of them think that some other military people are arseholes.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

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edit to add. it is NOT true. there are numerous requirements other than physical to join the military. easy example, for my commission i needed to study Military Science for 4 years. I had numerous academic tests. i am truly amazed i must defend the military from such obvious false claims.

Key word there is commission. Unless the US military has stopped recruiting anyone but officers I fail to see how your post has any bearing on the OP.

he did not make that distinction. he made a broad dishonest stereotype. i disproved him by giving a very simple example of how there are more than physical requirements.

No, you didn't. You don't need to become an officer to join the military, therefore any requirements needed to become an officer are irrelevant to a discussion on the most basic requirements needed to join the military.

Somewhat ironically, you're being deliberately dishonest.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[lawrocket 3]

For far too many, being in the military is the highlight of their lives. This is understandable. And yes, being in the military can, in many circumstances, give greater credibility in a number of things. For example, I can speak with firsthand knowledge that many of the finest men and women I ever knew were from my military relationships. Similarly, some of the biggest douches I ever knew were also military.

The problem is that too many let the military define who they are. These people can’t just be Joe Snuffy but instead must define themselves as “former military war veteran Joe Snuffy.” Hey, good for you.

There is plenty to respect about former military. About present military. But I think blanket “respect” is no better or worse than blanket “disrespect” based on service. It should not be used to enhance or dilute credibility, unless one is discussing issues of military morale, risks, veteran’s care, etc.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,396]

And on the other side of things there are a lot of military folks that I have a tremendous amount of respect for.

Denny, who has done more for his country - and shown more courage under fire - than any dozen other people I have ever met.

Debbie, who was in the military in the years when being a woman in the military meant having to fight your fellow soldiers to even get the opportunity to serve in risky places in the world.

Chad, who had a lot of other problems, but shone more brightly in the military than he likely could have in any other endeavor.

Harry, who I got to know well while working with him on demos. Competent under any conceivable pressure and would do anything for his teammates, whether on a demo or during a mission.

There are, fortunately, far more of these types than there are of the other extreme.

[lawrocket 3]

Thank you, Bill.

The military is just like any other group of people - just a group of individuals, each with their own ideas, opinions and makeup. You have your high speed troops and you have your fuckups.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[OHCHUTE 0]

The cool thing about the military is military surplus goods.

[rushmc 18]

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And on the other side of things there are a lot of military folks that I have a tremendous amount of respect for.

Denny, who has done more for his country - and shown more courage under fire - than any dozen other people I have ever met.

Debbie, who was in the military in the years when being a woman in the military meant having to fight your fellow soldiers to even get the opportunity to serve in risky places in the world.

Chad, who had a lot of other problems, but shone more brightly in the military than he likely could have in any other endeavor.

Harry, who I got to know well while working with him on demos. Competent under any conceivable pressure and would do anything for his teammates, whether on a demo or during a mission.

There are, fortunately, far more of these types than there are of the other extreme.

You and lawrocket said it as best it can be said

Thanks, to both of you

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Andy9o8 0]

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I'll bet you wouldn't have the berries to say that in a group of enlisted persons.

You know, I've lost track of how many times I've heard and read this type of statement: just slightly less than an implied direct threat of violence, but still the implication that if someone dared to exercise their right to speak ill about the military in the presence of enlisted men or veterans, they'd get their asses kicked.

Shame on you for saying that. Every time you do that, you dishonor the Constitution.

[weekender 0]

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edit to add. it is NOT true. there are numerous requirements other than physical to join the military. easy example, for my commission i needed to study Military Science for 4 years. I had numerous academic tests. i am truly amazed i must defend the military from such obvious false claims.

Key word there is commission. Unless the US military has stopped recruiting anyone but officers I fail to see how your post has any bearing on the OP.

he did not make that distinction. he made a broad dishonest stereotype. i disproved him by giving a very simple example of how there are more than physical requirements.

No, you didn't. You don't need to become an officer to join the military, therefore any requirements needed to become an officer are irrelevant to a discussion on the most basic requirements needed to join the military.

Somewhat ironically, you're being deliberately dishonest.

he did not make that distinction you did. i gave an example of how you need to meet more than physical requirements to join. my comments are not excluded from his broad statement. you choosing to exclude them makes me neither wrong nor dishonest. my statement disproves his.

with that said, there are more than physical requirements to enlisting in the military. a quick google search will prove that. so excluding my comments about my personal experience does nothing to change the fact that he is wrong. as are you.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[jakee 1,254]

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he did not make that distinction

Exactly, he did not make a distinction. The minimum requirements needed to join the military are the minimum requirements needed to join the military even if those requirements are not all that is needed to join a specific section of the military. That the distinction was not made works against your argument, not for it. If the distinction was made, and the thread title was "Question regarding veteran commissioned officers and respect for them then your point would be valid. But it doesn't, so it isn't.

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with that said, there are more than physical requirements to enlisting in the military. a quick google search will prove that. so excluding my comments about my personal experience does nothing to change the fact that he is wrong. as are you.

Don't forget, I also said you needed to be smart enough to find the recruiting office. Have fun with that one, it's an easy target.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Deimian 43]

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He's German -- the viewpoint on the military isn't the same there. Really.

Not all countries consider that their military is the only thing standing between them and what they see as "freedom." Not all Americans do, either, but that's another thread.

But for a non-American to ask something about the Americans' view of military service isn't trolling. Having an opinion about it isn't, either.

Wendy P.

I am not German. I live in Germany, but I am not German. I agree that the view of the military is different. That is exactly why I am asking. In Europe we don't have "welcome back veterans" signs in every airport, we don't have discounts for them and we don't have people saying "thank you for your service" in every place they go with uniform.

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Our military has made more people free on this planet than any other organization of any type ever

And, they never tried to commit genicide

Well, the first point is probably true. But ask yourself when did the army "bring freedom" for humanitarian reasons, and when for politics or for economics. I would like to see the US army in some remote poor country in africa without resources and without a political party that points out at the flaws of the occidental systems. That never happen. All the interventions (or close to all at least) were either agains communist governments or agains governments that didn't want to collaborate with the US economic interests. WWI and WWII are the only exceptions I can think of. And I can certainly understand that people are proud of soldiers fighting against the Nazis and their genocide. However, before WWII in Spain we had another regime, with a dictatorship that had brutally killed hundreds of thousands of people that were against it and forced millions to either leave the country or live in poverty and fear. After WWII the US was an ally with the regime, due to its position during Cold War. So fighting agains communist regimes was ok, and allying with conservative regimes was perfectly ok too. It looks like the US military "brings freedom" selectively, and supports dictators when they share some political views.

The second point is very arguable. Go to middle east and ask around, for instance. And BTW, saying that Germany's army committed genocide sure looks like a stereotype. Germany, is not the Nazi party. I think this should be clear.

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in order to engage him i must accept his premise that the military has no requirements to join, other than the physical ability to kill. this is an obvious falsehood and meant to inflame and insult. they also imply the purpose is to travel to other places and kill people. while that is an ability it is not the sole purpose. another statement meant solely to insult and inflame.

I have family in the military (just one cousin, but anyway), and from what I've been told, and read, I can honestly say that in my country the requirement is just to be healthy enough to serve. If in the US is different I would appreciate that you tell me. The purpose of the military are either:

1) Defend
2) Attack
3) Help in natural disasters

Since in most wars that had the US as participant in the last 100 years nobody attacked your country, I think that the first purpose can be neglected in this discussion. For the third purpose soldiers get very little recognition, with compared with war veterans that serve the second purpose. Let me know if I am wrong. So the only real thing is attacking. The purpose of the soldiers, their motivations, might be different. But whether you like it or not soldiers are meant to receive orders and shut up. They are toys in political hands. I think many soldiers would agree with that. If so, why keep enrolling? The only soldier that I know that didn't shut up, and tried to show the american people what was happening is now in prison (Bradley Manning). So much for freedom, eh? I think the first victims of the american military are its soldiers. Some of you go far away from your families, go to the nightmare of war, you kill, you are being killed or being disabled. And all of that because of the government and military propaganda. For me this is cristal clear. I would like to be corrected if I am wrong, and I would like to understand why, if I am not wrong, soldiers and military supporters doesn't see it. This is the whole purpose of my thread. Not insulting or offending.

There are many countries in the world. Many of them have the same freedom, or more, than in the US. People in other places are free to study what they want without more conditions than being intelligent enough, they are free to be cured, even if they are in difficult economic conditions. We are all slaves or our income, but in the US is a little bit over the top, when compared with other places. People in many countries have more real freedom than in the US, less percentage of the population is in jail, the wealth is distributed slightly (just slightly) better. And those countries have that with a small fraction of military spent and presence. And yet soldiers keep enrolling in the US, willing to do whatever they are ordered, following political decisions, for the sake of freedom. For a freedom that they are not getting. And people applaud it as a right decision. I don't get it.

I like to be right, so please correct me if I am wrong, so I can start being right.

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I do not feel i deserve any special treatment.

Kudos. I would like that many of your fellow veterans feel it like that.

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easy example, for my commission i needed to study Military Science for 4 years.

Excuse my ignorance, but are you talking about a commission for accepting you in the military, or a commission for accepting you in a specific medium/high qualification position? It is difficult for me to believe that for being a private you have to study 4 years.



I've seen that the number of replies is overwhelming now, so I'll try to read an learn, and if I have something to say that can be valuable for the discussion, I'll do it.

[jakee 1,254]

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You and lawrocket said it as best it can be said

Thanks, to both of you

Oh hey look, they said the exact same thing I did. I'm sure you just didn't see that post





(Genuine good humour, not a challenge)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rushmc 18]

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You and lawrocket said it as best it can be said

Thanks, to both of you

Oh hey look, they said the exact same thing I did. I'm sure you just didn't see that post

Then well said my friend, well said!



(Genuine good humour, not a challenge)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[weekender 0]

>Excuse my ignorance, but are you talking about a commission for accepting you in the military, or a commission for accepting you in a specific medium/high qualification position? It is difficult for me to believe that for being a private you have to study 4 years.

i have a suggestion. perhaps you should not be admittedly ignorant of a topic before you make statements you know will inflame. in your original post you stated that you would be attacked, so you knew your statements were offensive to many.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante