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Deimian

Question regarding veterans and respect for them

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So, I've written this in another thread. The thread was about the "incident" that one veteran and fellow skydiver had in a DZ, when he was asked to cover one tattoo that he has, saying "infidel" in arabic. My post was removed and I was suggested to put it in Speaker's Corner, as it is a better place for it than "general skydiving discussion". There is another thread here in SC, but the discussion is going somewhere else, and I don't want to start a big offtopic there. This is what I've written in the original thread. I would like to say that after reading http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4466623#4466623 I don't support this jumper as much as I say in the original post, as the word can have a different meaning than just "not believer", and be offensive in a broader way. In other words, for me is ok to say that you don't agree with somebody else believes, even in a not polite way, but insulting a person or a group (insulting them, not their believes) is something else. For instance saying that "Jesus, God or Allah are bullshit" is one thing, saying that "you are a piece of shit for believing in Jesus, God or Allah" is a very different one. Being said that, this is my original post:

"I have the feeling that I'll be crushed for this, but what the hell, I'll say it anyway.

Why being a veteran is important in this case? If he was not a veteran would it be ok to impose him to cover his tattoo because somebody felt he was offending their religious believes? I completely support him, they shouldn't ask him to cover his tattoo, and I guess that this is the really important stuff. But I really don't get why people expect to be treated differently because they were in the military.

Why so much emphasis on that? And why some/many people actually treats them differently? Enrolling in a job that doesn't require anything besides being physically healthy enough to go to kill people in other countries that are thousands of miles away is really a reason to be proud of? I would be proud of somebody that is willing to give his life to protect mine. But it look foolish to me to believe that an illiterate and ignorant poor soul with an AK47 can kill me from thousands of miles away. Especially if you keep in mind that if military *from any country* would be used just in defensive manner, this ignorant soul would not even know that my country existed.

Now, knowing that many americans support unconditionally their military, whatever they do, and that many skydivers come from the military, I expect to be bashed for what I've said. But please, before charging against me, try to explain me why this is so important, especially in america. I really don't get it and I would like to understand. Maybe we all can learn something.

Sorry for the offtopic."

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"But I really don't get why people expect to be treated differently because they were in the military."

This.

I agree completely. I'm involved in a discussion on FB about this very topic. I resent that the author feels the need to lead his article with a summary of his military service. If this is legitimately a freedom of speech/expression issue, his prior military service is irrelevant and only seeks to evoke sympathy.

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I completely agree as well.

If the military were just used for defense of the homeland then I could respect people who sign up, but unfortunately they're voluntarily signing up to go and kill people in far away countries at the whim of politicians.

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This is obviously an attempt to offend and create attention for yourself. you should expect to be bashed, not for requesting an honest dialog but for purposely insulting American Veterans with the dishonest stereotyping of them and their purpose.

I would say shame on you but im guessing you have none and it would only feed your craving for attention.
"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

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This is obviously an attempt to offend and create attention for yourself. you should expect to be bashed, not for requesting an honest dialog but for purposely insulting American Veterans with the dishonest stereotyping of them and their purpose.

I would say shame on you but im guessing you have none and it would only feed your craving for attention.



I am sorry you think that. I can assure you that I have absolutely no need for attention, neither I have intention to offend.

I don't mean to insult anybody, I just want to understand why this is so important, why they earn so much respect for actions that in most cases follow exclusively political and economical reasons, and why they are given preferential treatment. Because from where I stand I don't see it. I don't see that kind of behavior in members of any other military force in the world. American Veterans deserve more than Veterans of any other country? It would be nice if instead of saying that I am stereotyping their purpose you put some well thought arguments on the table.

You are right on one thing. I am close to shameless. Sadly, not entirely.

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One clear example of my point

>"Enrolling in a job that doesn't require anything besides being physically healthy enough to go to kill people in other countries that are thousands of miles away is really a reason to be proud of?"

this is a dishonest stereotype of the military with no purpose other than to inflame and insult. It makes your request for an honest discussion invalid.
"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

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One clear example of my point

>"Enrolling in a job that doesn't require anything besides being physically healthy enough to go to kill people in other countries that are thousands of miles away is really a reason to be proud of?"

this is a dishonest stereotype of the military with no purpose other than to inflame and insult. It makes your request for an honest discussion invalid.



I would like to know if there is any extra requisite. In my country at least there isn't. If you are complaining about the second part of the sentence, I am sorry but that is what they get credit for. You don't show the same respect (or at least people don't show it so much) to the people in the military that helps in case case of natural disaster for instance. People show respect to war veterans. and the US, as far as I know, was not pushed into a war because it was being invaded. If somebody try to invade my country, and is a menace to my well being and the well being of my loved ones, I would be proud of supporting the soldiers that helped to avoid it. But that is not the case.

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One clear example of my point

>"Enrolling in a job that doesn't require anything besides being physically healthy enough to go to kill people in other countries that are thousands of miles away is really a reason to be proud of?"

this is a dishonest stereotype of the military with no purpose other than to inflame and insult. It makes your request for an honest discussion invalid.



I would like to know if there is any extra requisite. In my country at least there isn't. If you are complaining about the second part of the sentence, I am sorry but that is what they get credit for. You don't show the same respect (or at least people don't show it so much) to the people in the military that helps in case case of natural disaster for instance. People show respect to war veterans. and the US, as far as I know, was not pushed into a war because it was being invaded. If somebody try to invade my country, and is a menace to my well being and the well being of my loved ones, I would be proud of supporting the soldiers that helped to avoid it. But that is not the case.



I am not complaining. i am pointing out what you are. a dishonest troll.
"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

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People should be judges as individual’s period. However you have a lot of dumb people who need to feel they are living in a movie.


In my experience anytime you have fragile assumptions that can easily broken down with logic you tend to have a much more violent reaction to questioning said standard.
For exp.
All Troops are Hero’s. Really even the ones who raped and killed children?
People want it to be black and white for simplicity.
I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

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I am not complaining. i am pointing out what you are. a dishonest troll.



You seem to be avoiding his question though by just calling him a troll. That kind of avoidance tactic is common with people who can't legitimately win an argument, so they just evade. So yeah, that's the impression you're giving with this.

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I am not complaining. i am pointing out what you are. a dishonest troll.



If calling me names will make you feel better or that you are on the right side that is ok for me, whatever floats your boat, I won't win or loose anything by being called dishonest troll. But I, and maybe you, will win something if we engage in a reasonable discussion. I'll be all ears if you want to get to that point.

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But I really don't get why people expect to be treated differently because they were in the military.



Because a lot of them think they are better and worth more than "civilians" because they "fight to protect our freedom".

You have a job taking orders and being an instrument of war. Yay.

Good for you.

/rant

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I am not complaining. i am pointing out what you are. a dishonest troll.



You seem to be avoiding his question though by just calling him a troll. That kind of avoidance tactic is common with people who can't legitimately win an argument, so they just evade. So yeah, that's the impression you're giving with this.



his question is phrased with an obvious falsehood, as i pointed out.

anyone who responds to me is obviously not busy at work or has anything meaningful to do in life. after all anyone who has the time to type on this forum is unemployed or a worthless moron. Why are you an unemployed moron with time to respond to me?

pretty much the same thing
"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

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I am not complaining. i am pointing out what you are. a dishonest troll.



If calling me names will make you feel better or that you are on the right side that is ok for me, whatever floats your boat, I won't win or loose anything by being called dishonest troll. But I, and maybe you, will win something if we engage in a reasonable discussion. I'll be all ears if you want to get to that point.



your question is purposely a dishonest stereotype meant to inflame and insult. there is no reasonable response to it, which was your intent. which makes you a troll.
"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

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He's German -- the viewpoint on the military isn't the same there. Really.

Not all countries consider that their military is the only thing standing between them and what they see as "freedom." Not all Americans do, either, but that's another thread.

But for a non-American to ask something about the Americans' view of military service isn't trolling. Having an opinion about it isn't, either.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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He's German -- the viewpoint on the military isn't the same there. Really.

Not all countries consider that their military is the only thing standing between them and what they see as "freedom." Not all Americans do, either, but that's another thread.

But for a non-American to ask something about the Americans' view of military service isn't trolling. Having an opinion about it isn't, either.

Wendy P.



The reason for the difference in the feelings is not hard to figure out

Our military has made more people free on this planet than any other organization of any type ever

And, they never tried to commit genicide
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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And, they never tried to commit genicide

"The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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And, they never tried to commit genicide

"The only good Indian is a dead Indian."

Wendy P.



I didnt know you hated indians
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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He's German -- the viewpoint on the military isn't the same there. Really.

Not all countries consider that their military is the only thing standing between them and what they see as "freedom." Not all Americans do, either, but that's another thread.

But for a non-American to ask something about the Americans' view of military service isn't trolling. Having an opinion about it isn't, either.

Wendy P.



you are smarter than this. ive read your posts in the past. in order to engage him i must accept his premise that the military has no requirements to join, other than the physical ability to kill. this is an obvious falsehood and meant to inflame and insult. they also imply the purpose is to travel to other places and kill people. while that is an ability it is not the sole purpose. another statement meant solely to insult and inflame.


for the record. i think in this situation, the soldier comments are on his personal blog. he is proud of his service and has the right to reflect that on his page. about the tattoo, i feel it was put on his body to insult and inflame. it did that with the DZ's customers and they have the right to ask him to cover it or leave. i side with the DZ on this specific incident.

I firmly believe the OP is here with no intention of an honest discussion but to insult and inflame. for the record, im a veteran. as was my father, a WWII vet. I do not feel i deserve any special treatment.

(edited to correct material punctuation errors)
"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

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you are smarter than this. ive read your posst in the past. in order to engage him i must accept his premise that the military has no requirements to join, other than the physical ability to kill. this is an obvious falsehood and meant to inflame and insult. they also imply the purpose is to travel to other places and kill people. while that is an ability it is not the sole purpose. another statement meant solely to insult and inflame.

When the Army is actively recruiting, or during draft times, that's pretty much exactly true. Remember the T-shirt that said "join the Army, travel to foreign places, meet interesting people, and kill them." Yeah, kind of funny in peacetime.

Not so funny when we're doing that. It came in a Marines version, too.

Lots and lots of people join the military because they see it as a way to give back to their country (I'm not a vet, but my father also was). There are others who join because they want to play with guns, or travel (remember "Private Benjamin?" That was a documentary), and some because it's the only way they can get a job.

It's kind of like police. Most are good. But there are definitely people who join because they get power, and they can play with guns.

Treat people as individuals, take into account what they've done. And I still don't see a foreigner asking a possibly ignorant question about American perceptions as being trolling.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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>>Enrolling in a job that doesn't require anything besides being physically healthy enough
>>to go to kill people in other countries that are thousands of miles away is really a
>>reason to be proud of?"

>this is a dishonest stereotype of the military with no purpose other than to inflame and
>insult. It makes your request for an honest discussion invalid.

That is literally true. It's like saying that becoming a skydiving student requires nothing more than the ability to sign a waiver and walk to the airplane. (Witness the frail old women who have skydived.) Doesn't mean all skydivers are like that - but it does mean that "I'm a skydiver" alone doesn't _necessarily_ mean all that much. It's what you do after that first jump that matters.

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>>Enrolling in a job that doesn't require anything besides being physically healthy enough
>>to go to kill people in other countries that are thousands of miles away is really a
>>reason to be proud of?"

>this is a dishonest stereotype of the military with no purpose other than to inflame and
>insult. It makes your request for an honest discussion invalid.

That is literally true. It's like saying that becoming a skydiving student requires nothing more than the ability to sign a waiver and walk to the airplane. (Witness the frail old women who have skydived.) Doesn't mean all skydivers are like that - but it does mean that "I'm a skydiver" alone doesn't _necessarily_ mean all that much. It's what you do after that first jump that matters.



there is more to an adult conversation than the literal translation of words. any reasonable person knows what his intent was and why. those agreeing with his falsehood are piling on and defending him.

(edit to add. it is NOT true. there are numerous requirements other than physical to join the military. easy example, for my commission i needed to study Military Science for 4 years. I had numerous academic tests. i am truly amazed i must defend the military from such obvious false claims.)
"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

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Wow, we are really heading to the left here this morning. Most of you have no idea the sacrifice people in the military make on our behalf. Every one of them deserves our respect.

Things sure have changed. Used to be alot of veterans were jumpers. We wouldn't even be having this discussion. Ridiculous.
Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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