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shattenjager

Combat veteran with "infidel" tattoo asked to leave Florida DZ

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http://www.cityoflakewales.com/airport/lwaa.shtml

Her job title per the website is FBO.

If FBO is not a govt. job then so be it, but the airport is public and she is managing it...



Is she? If you dont know what an FBO is then how are you making that assumption?

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=FBO


You left on your own, so the whole argument is invalid, but just for the sake of arguing if she had asked you to leave then she would have been asking you to leave a private business entity.
Fiend

I am about to take my last voyage, a great leap in the dark. - Thomas Hobbes.

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"The only people who would be offended by that tattoo would be people who follow Sharia Law"



Can we run this by our thread's Arabologist? ;)

Thanks for coming forward.

This issue is not legal or a rights issue, but it is a "what's right" issue.

Prior to Betty talking to you, had you had any interaction with the Qataris?
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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Funny, in the 1950's a black man goes into a whites only diner and they say that he did it to be an asshole and he got what he deserves.



Yeah man, you're a civil rights HERO! You're practically MLK, for reals.

And that stuff about your 'religion' being harassed by a government employee - that's called grasping at straws.

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You ask if she specifically said I had to leave or if she said I could not jump there.

The answer is no, she did not say that.

She said I had to cover it up or leave.

You do the math.




So you weren't 'demanded' to leave as is being quoted?

Your blog was meant to reach '10 friends' yet you ask for donations...I find that interesting.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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It is. And the people who wave the "God hates fags" posters are asked to leave funerals of soldiers because they're offensive to the people there.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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IMO this is a difficult case. There are arguments towards both sides here.

IMO the reason why many here are against you, is because of the PR nightmare this has caused towards the DZ.

As I take it, it is an unwritten rule in skydiving that who ever takes legal action towards the DZ is no longer a member of the skydiving community. In this case, even though there is no legal action taken, the PR-shitstorm kind of resembles the effects of a legal dispute and therefore people are taking the side of the DZ.

Basically I agree with you that you should be allowed to wear a tattoo that expresses the lack of your religious thoughts. I also think that this sort of resembles discrimination based on religious beliefs.

On a more humane level, I wouldnt consider your tattoo as overly provocative taken into consideration your history. Having seen your friends killed in action and remain totally objective towards the people you were dealing with is a lot to ask from anyone. I dont really think there are many of us who could do that.

Many people here havent seen war, nor have I. However, living in a country that has been in war many times during the 20th century, I can see how difficult it is here for the older generations to look at things objectively. Its easy to judge other peoples attitudes from above, if you have always been watching things from the TV or reading history books.

And for Zenister (and perhaps others) who may see me as misinformed and clueless about the law, I should add that Im currently finishing my masters degree on law, and I would hope I have already learned a thing or two during my years in the university.

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What would you have done if it was your business?

You had a complaint from one of your customers that someone was sporting something about as offensive to them as a swastika to your average holocaust survivor. You could tell the cash cow to piss off to your competitor up the road. You could ask [you] nicely to do something about hiding the tattoo causing offence. Sure, everyone has a right to free speech but there's cash on the line and you don't want anyone getting bent out of shape over something as innocuous as a tattoo.

What do you do as the business owner?

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Well, since I am the guy that this happened to at Lake Wales, let me clarify some things.

First of all, the tattoo was gotten mainly because of a friend who committed suicide due to PTSD, and wanted me to get the tattoo. I did not want to get it because I thought it was offensive, after he killed himself I talked to my cousin, who speaks 7 dialects and grew up in Yemen tell me that "The only people who would be offended by that tattoo would be people who follow Sharia Law", and that the tattoo simply means someone who has no faith. With those factors in play, that's why I got the tattoo - I love how people assume I got it because I wanted to be an asshole and start stuff.

Also, I wasn't pissed off when Betty called me to the back to tell me that they were offended by my tattoo. I was because she didn't know WHY it was offensive, and after I told her I served in Iraq and Afghanistan and the tattoo represents my lack of faith, she still said I had to cover it up, and suggested duct tape.

After that happened she told me I could cover it up or leave. So her statement saying I chose to leave is accurate. I chose to leave over choosing to cover it up with DUCT TAPE!

All that being said, I later found out that Betty is also the Manager of the Airport.... A government employee, so when I was discriminated against for a religious statement - I was asked to leave the public airport by a governmental employee because of a tattoo that says my religious faith. (or lack thereof)

So IDC if you guys want to think I got it to be an asshole, and to be quite frank it's irrelevant. If you go to England a fag is a cigarette, a lift is an elevator and a boot is a car trunk. In America it has a different meaning. We're in America, and Kafir or Infidel means One without faith.

Last time I checked you could not discriminate or refuse service to someone based on religious belief. She could have kicked me out for any reason, but as soon as she said it was because of a tattoo that stated a religious belief, she was in the wrong. Moreso because she holds a dual govt. job at the same location.

Funny, in the 1950's a black man goes into a whites only diner and they say that he did it to be an asshole and he got what he deserves.

Point is, the actual reason behind the tattoo is irrelevant. It's a religious statement, and protected under the 1964 civil rights act.

And when I made the blog it was meant to be seen by a group of about 10 friends who read my blog. I didn't expect it to go viral and have over 110,000 views in 48 hours. So my intent was to vent to a group of friends -



/facepalm

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And for Zenister (and perhaps others) who may see me as misinformed and clueless about the law, I should add that Im currently finishing my masters degree on law, and I would hope I have already learned a thing or two during my years in the university.



So you think you could win his case? Do you think he even has a case?

I'll stick with the opinions of actual practicing lawyers vs those who havent passed the bar thanks.
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

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What would I do if it was my business?

First of all, I would have asked the Qatari's why it was offensive. After all, she didn't know why it was offensive, and even after I told her It means non'believer, she still wanted me to cover it.

So the issue is not even that the tattoo is offensive. She didn't care what it said, she cared that it offended them, period.

So, my answer would have been that I would have not made any call until I had more information.
-Eddie B (feel free to message)
www.facebook.com/eddie.d.bryant

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So the issue is not even that the tattoo is offensive. She didn't care what it said, she cared that it offended them, period.



and that is ultimately all that matters as a business owner. You are going to spend maybe a couple of hundred bucks, they are going to spend several thousand. You aren't keeping the lights on even much less paying employees and fuel. If no one else showed up at all while they were there the DZ would still run, who do you think is going to get greater consideration? Its simple economics under a capitalist system.

I've a number of shirts that are/could be considered offensive to a number of different groups. If a business owner asks me to cover them or leave because it is affecting their business they are perfectly within their rights as a business owner. Making a fuss about it or pretending that I've suffered some great injustice because of what I CHOSE would just make me a douchebag.
____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

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That's fair enough and I can see where you're coming from.

I don't know if you know - or if you've seen on here some of the variant observations on your tattoo - but it probably is rather offensive to many people who can read it.

Had she researched it and fully understood just how strongly the Qataris felt about it, would you then have been OK with her call?

As an aside, I've posted on here by way of example my experience of going to 6-Flags in California with a chick who was dressed so slutty that staff refused her entry. [pictures are awaited] This was rather novel to those of us in the queue with her as it wouldn't have crossed our minds back home.

She was essentially asked to leave as staff felt she would offend their other customers. Can you see how their call was not that different from that of the staff at the DZ?

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and there was this just posted on their Facebook page:

Skydive Lake Wales
Another comment from NE Ohio
Another NE Ohio jumper who wants to be semi anonymous just to avoid DZ politics. Eddie is well know here to be an opportunistic prick. Hang in there. I'll be jumping at your DZ. Feel free to post the message... but please leave my name out of it.

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So my intent was to vent to a group of friends



"I am a disabled combat veteran. I served in Iraq and worked in Afghanistan. I took an IED because my country asked me too, and I was injured by a suicide bomber in Afghanistan. I have a Purple Heart and an ARCOM with Valor."

How many of the 10 friends that you were trying to reach were unaware of this?

Sorry.. misdirected.
Owned by Remi #?

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So you think you could win his case? Do you think he even has a case?

I'll stick with the opinions of actual practicing lawyers vs those who havent passed the bar thanks.



Even If I wanted to answer that, I would have to peruse this incident much more than I have reading this thread on DZ.com

IMO it is kind of irrelevant to talk about legal action. I doubt that there is ever going to be any.

I merely wanted to say that based on the little info I have on this, I understand both sides here, and since you are so keen on only seeing the other side of this I wanted you to know that perhaps Im not as misinformed on my opinions as you thought I am. Thats all.

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It's funny how it is open season on christians when it comes to offensive symbols and words(t-shirts and tats with an inverted cross,the word satan,ect...)being proudly displayed,and the liberals call it freedom of expression,and I have never seen anyone get kicked out of anywhere in the last 20 years for that kind of expression.
I thought we had this thing called freedom of religion,and this other thing called freedom of expression here in the USA? I guess it's only allowed if it's PC.
Now I know the liberals will say that freedom of speech and expression should not allow you to scream "FIRE"in a crowded public area,and I agree,but having a tat that says infidel is not likely to start a stampede.
If you do not like it, then do not look at it.
I am not religious at all so you could call me an infidel as well.
Bottom line is that we have freedom of religion and expression here in the USA and if you do not like it then do not come here.
They say it is the business owners right to refuse service to anyone for any reason,but we know that is BS.
What do you think would happen if a business refused service to someone of asian descent,or black people,or jews,or muslims,ect....?
So why is it ok to refuse service to someone expressing their non believer status?
I would like to thank you for serving our country and for exercising our rights of freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and expression.

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So why is it ok to refuse service to someone expressing their non believer status?



Your fact-spinning question has already been answered 35 times.



It's a war on atheism. I hope Fox picks it up to lead the 6 o'clock news.
Remster

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