Opie 0 #101 March 16, 2013 Quotewomen hating close minded individuals?? press my religion onto others? interesting. Yes, it is ok that people disagree. Whoosh.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,116 #102 March 16, 2013 It also refers to marrying someone from outside your tribe; that can be taken to mean someone from another race. Before citing too many Levitican arguments, one has to consider that Jesus put paid to those customs (if all the other reasons to put people to death don't count any more, why should that one still be proscribed?). The New Testament arguments are very subject to interpretation -- just as the arguments that used to be used to justify segregation. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
promise5 17 #103 March 16, 2013 Tribe does not in anyway mean race. race=humanNo matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible. Believe me I tried. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #104 March 16, 2013 QuoteTribe does not in anyway mean race. race=human So what does that mean? That you shouldn't marry outside of your town? Your country club? Your congregation? I seriously doubt that the biblical passage in question means you shouldn't marry outside the human species. Are you ever going to explain how you can reconcile a constitutional amendment to force your religious beliefs on every American with the guarantee of religious freedom in the First Amendment? That seems downright un-American to me. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
93626392 0 #105 March 16, 2013 Quote Simply put, I disagree with it. I think this is one of the most honest posts ever made on this forum. It has no pretentions of logic or argument. I admire it because it's the most straightforward written form of curling up into a ball, closing your eyes, covering your ears, and shouting "NAH NAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU". There is no invitation to any kind of dissenting view. It simply says: nothing you can say will change my mind. I'm sure we can all sympathize... "If only the world didn't have other people in it with their offensive dissenting views. If only they all just went away. If only I was the only one who gets to decide..." Perversely, the thought is expressed on a forum where the purpose is debate! And in that sense it has absolutely no value whatsoever - literally none. Just a position statement: "I disagree". So bold... so honest. It speaks ten times more about the author than the sum total of her words. Amazing on so many levels. Post of the year in my view. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
promise5 17 #106 March 16, 2013 Your post did make me laugh and I mean that sincerely.No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible. Believe me I tried. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
promise5 17 #107 March 16, 2013 I don't believe that it's pushing my religious beliefs on anyone by saying I would in theory support marriage being defined as one man and one woman. I think there are many people that do not share the same beliefs that i do that feel the same way. If I say I base part of this on the way I was raised will you also attack that? In using the term, simply put I am saying that i understand I am not going to change the way you believe and you're not going to change the way I believe. But, i do think that people can have a fair and interesting discussion on any topic and still remain respectful of each other.No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible. Believe me I tried. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueblur 0 #108 March 16, 2013 QuoteBut, where does it say "race"? The Bible refers to marrying a non believer. Considering at the time, a non-believer was everyone who was not Hebrew, then that pretty much sums up every other race outside the Hebrews. (btw, I'm a non-believer, but raised Christian, so I have a good understanding of the material, as bogus as I think it is) QuoteTribe does not in anyway mean race. race=human species=human. race=ethnicity, color, nationality etc... that's why it's called racial hate. the racist don't hate humans, they hate a particular "race"In every man's life he will be allotted one good woman and one good dog. That's all you get, so appreciate them while the time you have with them lasts. - RiggerLee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bignugget 0 #109 March 16, 2013 Quote Quote women hating close minded individuals?? press my religion onto others? interesting. Yes, it is ok that people disagree. Whoosh.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bignugget 0 #110 March 16, 2013 QuoteI don't believe that it's pushing my religious beliefs on anyone by saying I would in theory support marriage being defined as one man and one woman. I think there are many people that do not share the same beliefs that i do that feel the same way. If I say I base part of this on the way I was raised will you also attack that? In using the term, simply put I am saying that i understand I am not going to change the way you believe and you're not going to change the way I believe. But, i do think that people can have a fair and interesting discussion on any topic and still remain respectful of each other. Ill support your amendment if you support mine. Just ETA: I believe all people are created equal under God. I have a real hard time believing the Jesus I was taught about would come down and hate on some people for loving each other. I find it much more in line with what I learned that he would be disgusted with bigotry and denying people civil rights because of who they love. Thats my Jesus. I don't think he has any place in legislature, but I don't think he would be as bigoted towards gays as you make him out to be. AFAIK Jesus didn't write the bible. It was written by close minded people who wanted to spread THEIR interpretations of things. Before you go citing it too much you might go read what it says about women, and keeping slaves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
promise5 17 #111 March 16, 2013 But, I'm not asking you to support mine No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible. Believe me I tried. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #112 March 16, 2013 >I think its a leap to go from gay marriage to interracial marriage.(there is only one >race and that is human,many different ethnic backgrounds). Not, sure who the "they" >are. You cannot use the bible to support that argument, and yes I would tell any >Christian that does that they are dead wrong. Here's what the Virginia Supreme Court said about that: "Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix." It took the Supreme Court to tell them they were dead wrong. The Supreme Court is now considering a very similar issue with respect to gay marriage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #113 March 16, 2013 >his son is gay and can now finally open his eyes to the rights of other humans. Coming soon - a republican will realize his daughter is a woman and evolve on women's rights! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,116 #114 March 16, 2013 50 years ago, race = white, negro Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #115 March 16, 2013 Fortunately, this thinking will go the way of the dodo eventually. Unfortunately close minded people will move on to the next thing to hate/persecute/ostracize.Performance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #116 March 16, 2013 Quote I have no issue with the government saying that churches can't perform legal marriages any more, that there has to be a civil ceremony as well.. This is how it should be. NO reason the state should use churches as an agent for who can be married (and no reason churches should allow themselves to be used in this way either)."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #117 March 16, 2013 QuoteI want to interject a thought; it seems that it's something that the pro-gay marriage proponents don't understand, and the religious don't seem to be able to articulate. If something is against the moral code that one believes in, it is not possible to vote to allow it without going against ones conscience. Of course it is possible. I am a libertarian (or at least lean that way). I believe the government has no business regulating an entire range of behaviors which I do not approve of."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
okalb 78 #118 March 16, 2013 Quote But, I'm not asking you to support mine Let me ask you a very simple question. My mother is a lesbian. She has been in a monogamous relationship with another woman for around 30 years. Between them they have brought up 5 successful children (all straight) they own numerous properties, several businesses, pay their taxes and do everything that any other couple does. Do you think that they should be allowed the same legal rights as a heterosexual couple has? A simple yes or no answer will do here.Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManagingPrime 0 #119 March 16, 2013 Rights, yes. Entitlements, no. Why bother even asking the question of someone whos base argument for their belief stems from their religous views? Do you really think you will make any progress lobbying that group by pulling at heart strings or using reason (not intended to be disparaging)? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldwomanc6 38 #120 March 16, 2013 QuoteQuoteI want to interject a thought; it seems that it's something that the pro-gay marriage proponents don't understand, and the religious don't seem to be able to articulate. If something is against the moral code that one believes in, it is not possible to vote to allow it without going against ones conscience.lif Of course it is possible. I am a libertarian (or at least lean that way). I believe the government has no business regulating an entire range of behaviors which I do not approve of. Are you saying that it is possible to vote against your moral convictions and NOT violate your conscience? Politicians do it all the time, but then I'm not sure most of them have moral convictions (or consciences either). Personally, I try not to lie to myself. YMMVlisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #121 March 16, 2013 QuoteDo you think that they should be allowed the same legal rights as a heterosexual couple has. that's a great question - other than it's not 'rights', it's 'benefits' - speech, worship, bearing arms, bearing witness (bearing witness is point of discussion) applies to all individuals all individuals are supposed to have the same rights "couples" shouldn't have special gov benefits... INDIVIDUALS should. why do hetereosexual 'couples' get to have special benefits that singles don't? giving special benefits for anybody just because of how they associate (other than becoming a citizen) - is unfair it's very insightful how people talk about entitlements and benefits.....yet use the words "rights" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #122 March 16, 2013 QuoteQuoteQuoteI want to interject a thought; it seems that it's something that the pro-gay marriage proponents don't understand, and the religious don't seem to be able to articulate. If something is against the moral code that one believes in, it is not possible to vote to allow it without going against ones conscience.lif Of course it is possible. I am a libertarian (or at least lean that way). I believe the government has no business regulating an entire range of behaviors which I do not approve of. Are you saying that it is possible to vote against your moral convictions and NOT violate your conscience? Politicians do it all the time, but then I'm not sure most of them have moral convictions (or consciences either). Personally, I try not to lie to myself. YMMV No, I am saying that it is quite possible to realize that such things as rights and morality are quite different and that it is not necessary to tie legality to morality as tightly as some people would like to. I am personally against using marijuana, have no interest in doing so, and would tell anyone who asked my advice that they should abstain. I also view our "war on drugs" as a ludicrous waste of resources and assault on civil liberties and wish for immediate legalization. My personal view is that government is not and should not be used for morality. It is very poorly constructed for that purpose."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
oldwomanc6 38 #123 March 16, 2013 Gotcha! Thanks for clarifying your view.lisa WSCR 594 FB 1023 CBDB 9 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #124 March 17, 2013 Quote Simply put, I disagree with it. For no reason at all? You're just against it and so the government should stop it?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #125 March 17, 2013 QuoteI don't believe that it's pushing my religious beliefs on anyone by saying I would in theory support marriage being defined as one man and one woman. I think there are many people that do not share the same beliefs that i do that feel the same way. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, and are entitled to live your life according to your own ideas of right and wrong. I may not agree with you, but so what? Where I think you go too far is in supporting a constitutional amendment to impose your opinion on everybody else. That's what changes the nature of the game from a disagreement between people about morality to an attack on freedom of religion. QuoteIf I say I base part of this on the way I was raised will you also attack that?No. But can you really not offer any reason for your beliefs deeper than "that's the way I was raised"? Do you never question the ideas you were handed as a child? QuoteIn using the term, simply put I am saying that i understand I am not going to change the way you believe and you're not going to change the way I believe. But, i do think that people can have a fair and interesting discussion on any topic and still remain respectful of each other.I do think an interested discussion can be had, but the discussion tends to be more interesting when people have actually thought about their beliefs, and can debate based on rational ideas. Also, I have on occasion changed my position on things, based on discussions with other people, even discussions here in speaker's corner. I for one am always interested in arguments that make me think about my own beliefs; if I can refute the argument, then I understand my own belief better, and if I can't refute the argument then I have to modify my beliefs. I was raised in a fairly conservative family, and this process has definitely trended towards a more socially liberal perspective, but some of my ideas have gone in the opposite direction. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
