So, It is a revenue problem? Or a spending problem?

[StreetScooby 5]

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See latest 2012-2013 IMF reports on austerity measures on the different countries.
Each dollar cut resulted in a fall of worker output of approximately 1.2 to 1.5$

Austerity during zero-bound economy does not make sense. Kind of like a construction worker refusing to pay to fix his right arm in the name of "budget cuts".

Do you actually believe the numbers being posted by the IMF/US government these days?

Insane policies have gotten us into this mess. Following insane policies are not going to get us out.

Everyone needs to be allowed to take care of themselves, and their families, in a civilized society. That means having a JOB. Seems pretty basic to me.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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They're the only ones with money. Trying to get additional revenue out of minimum wage workers at Taco Bell certainly isn't going to work.

So, the ~50% of people in the US who don't pay Federal income tax all work at Taco bell for minimum wage? Hum, where are you getting those figures?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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How about the fed can not spend more tthen it took in the previous year and that spending has to include some principle on the debt.

Built in base line increases to the Federal budget have got to go. I'm still amazed at how few people know about this.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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Just curious: to balance our budget, what % of income tax should the top 10% or 2% or whatever pay in your opinion?

If the Federal government took all taxable money of the rich people, and all US corporate profits, they still wouldn't cover the deficit.

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[StreetScooby 5]

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I think he was refering to DreamDancer aka Freefalldolphin.

Thank you

We are all engines of karma

[kallend 1,619]

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The only place you can increase taxes are on the very wealthy.

Sorry. That's just the way it is.

The average overall federal tax rate on the richest 400 Americans in the last year for which data are available (2009) was 19.9%. A whole lot of middle class Americans, including, I'm sure, many who post here, paid a higher rate than that. That also is the way it is, and it's wrong.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,619]

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Just curious: to balance our budget, what % of income tax should the top 10% or 2% or whatever pay in your opinion?

If the Federal government took all taxable money of the rich people, and all US corporate profits, they still wouldn't cover the deficit.

So who said it would?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[StreetScooby 5]

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So who said it would?

So it is a spending problem. QED?

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[NoCoSkyDiver 0]

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The believe in class warfare by taxing the rich...

Not to put too fine a point on it, but the way wealth has been rigged over the last 30 years, they're pretty much the only ones you can tax. They're the only ones with money. Trying to get additional revenue out of minimum wage workers at Taco Bell certainly isn't going to work.

Just curious: to balance our budget, what % of income tax should the top 10% or 2% or whatever pay in your opinion?

It can't be done by looking at ONE tax rate. It has to be looked at in terms of a combination of individual, corporate and investment income taxes. Right now, the mix is screwed up because of loopholes created and perpetuated by the 1986 reforms.

So why not just roll back to the rates and policies pre-1986? The world has changed. It wouldn't work.

What are the exact rates? I dunno, but clearly what we have now is too little. You can cut spending all you want on the "optional" parts of government, but what's left over you still can't pay for everything with the tax rates the way they currently are. You could reclassify some things we currently consider mandatory and cut those too, but it's a Catch 22 because those things employ people and if they're out of a job then the economy is even worse.

There HAS to be compromise. We have to cut some spending and increase some taxes. The only place you can increase taxes are on the very wealthy.

Sorry. That's just the way it is.

Can you provide some statistics from a nonpartisan source to back up the above claims. I went to treasury.gov and searched. Found the attached income mobility study. Does seem like the lower and middle income brackets did fairly well and better than the upper income brackets for the periods 1987-1996 and 1996-2005. I have included the conclusions. http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/Documents/incomemobilitystudy03-08revise.pdf. Btw, I agree that trying to get revenue from the minimal wage income worker won't work. However raising taxes on the 20% up probably should happen.


This study examined income mobility of individual taxpayers age 25 and over for the period from 1996 through 2005 using information reported on individual income tax returns. The key findings are that there was considerable income mobility of individuals in the U.S. economy during the 1996 through 2005 period and that the degree of income mobility among income groups is unchanged from the prior comparable period (1987 through 1996).
The analysis found that more than half of taxpayers (56 percent by one measure and 55 percent by another measure) moved to a different income quintile between 1996 and 2005. About half (58 percent by one measure and 45 percent by another measure) of those in the bottom income quintile in 1996 moved to a higher income group by 2005.
Economic growth resulted in rising incomes for most taxpayers over the period from 1996 to 2005. Median incomes of all taxpayers increased by 24 percent after adjusting for inflation. In addition, the real incomes of two-thirds of all taxpayers increased over this period. Further, the median incomes of those initially in the lower income groups increased more than the median incomes of those in the higher income groups.
The analysis also found that the composition of the very top income groups changes dramatically over time. Less than half (40 percent or 43 percent by different measures) of those in the top 1 percent in 1996 were still in the top 1 percent in 2005. Only about 25 percent of individuals in the top 0.01 percent in 1996 remained in the top 0.01 percent in 2005.

[NoCoSkyDiver 0]

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The only place you can increase taxes are on the very wealthy.

Sorry. That's just the way it is.

The average overall federal tax rate on the richest 400 Americans in the last year for which data are available (2009) was 19.9%. A whole lot of middle class Americans, including, I'm sure, many who post here, paid a higher rate than that. That also is the way it is, and it's wrong.

The dems always cite statistics about the super rich, then place in effect policies that effect people outside that bracket.

[StreetScooby 5]

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The dems always cite statistics about the super rich, then place in effect policies that effect people outside that bracket.

IMO, one problem here is that no one seems able to agree on what's being measured, and what it means. That's fundamental to any problem solving technique I've ever encountered. It's beyond ridiculous now.

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[normiss 619]

Whatever is IS, THEY don't get it, period.


It's ALL small money. Now stop spending it!

[kallend 1,619]

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So who said it would?

So it is a spending problem. QED?

Nope. You just have a comprehension problem.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[winsor 185]

As usual I did not run the numbers, but in broad strokes this:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Li0no7O9zmE

does a pretty good job of describing our plight.

[davjohns 1]

Everyone views things through their personal prism.

I am living in Belgium. They have significant income tax and a national 22% sales tax. They call it a Value Added Tax (VAT). Obviously, that means value is added to the government coffers. Garbage bags are $2 each due to tax. Fuel is about $9 per gallon thanks to tax. There is a tax for running a business from your home. Cars are inspected and taxed heavily. Etc.

Government services are horrible. Civil Servants practice the phrase, "It's not possible" in multiple languages. It's the only phrase they are proficient at.

Meanwhile, I am living in the US 1940's or 50's. No air conditioning. Radiators for heat. Heating oil has to be delivered to the tank out back (also heavily taxed). The streets are terrible. One car families are the norm. It's hard to find any product unless I shop online and have it sent from the US. Everything is very expensive. Quality of life is much below what the US enjoys. People shower infrequently because it costs so much for water and heating it.

I've never thought things would get better if we just took more money from those who earned it and gave it to government to spend on keeping politicians in power. It just doesn't make sense to me. Being here hasn't changed that any.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Just wait another 10 years and the U.S will catch up.

[OHCHUTE 0]

It's an oversight and accountability problem. Only last week did the Federal Government inquire about expendatures in Afghanistan. We've been spending money there for over 10 years, and just now they're doing an audit?

Gov't doesn't have a clue what they bring in, or what they spend. In fact, auditors do work at GAO and reports are ignored or not read.

Gov't is the problem.

[rushmc 18]

The end game here is a VAT or something similar
The rich do not have enough to get the gov blood suckers all they want (well, there will never be enough)

The money is in the middle

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[StreetScooby 5]

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Nope. You just have a comprehension problem.

And you clearly have issues far beyond anything that should be discussed in public. I truly hope you're getting professional help for them.

We are all engines of karma

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Nope. You just have a comprehension problem.

And you clearly have issues far beyond anything that should be discussed in public. I truly hope you're getting professional help for them.

Ever notice he says the exact same thing whenever he has no answer?

[StreetScooby 5]

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Ever notice he says the exact same thing whenever he has no answer?

I've ignored the guy for years now. Thought I'd give it a shot to see if anything had changed. Now, back at the farm...

We are all engines of karma

[kallend 1,619]

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Nope. You just have a comprehension problem.

And you clearly have issues far beyond anything that should be discussed in public. I truly hope you're getting professional help for them.

Your lack of logical analysis does not imply that others have any kind of problem at all.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,619]

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The end game here is a VAT or something similar
The rich do not have enough to get the gov blood suckers all they want (well, there will never be enough)

The money is in the middle

While that is true, it is not an excuse for taxing the extremely wealthy at a rate lower than many in the middle. The wealthiest 400 Americans paid an average of 19.9% in total federal taxes in the last year for which data are available. Most middle class taxpayers paid higher rates - possibly you did, I know I did.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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The end game here is a VAT or something similar
The rich do not have enough to get the gov blood suckers all they want (well, there will never be enough)

The money is in the middle

While that is true, it is not an excuse for taxing the extremely wealthy at a rate lower than many in the middle. The wealthiest 400 Americans paid an average of 19.9% in total federal taxes in the last year for which data are available. Most middle class taxpayers paid higher rates - possibly you did, I know I did.

You have a comprehension problem

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Gravitymaster 0]

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The end game here is a VAT or something similar
The rich do not have enough to get the gov blood suckers all they want (well, there will never be enough)

The money is in the middle

While that is true, it is not an excuse for taxing the extremely wealthy at a rate lower than many in the middle. The wealthiest 400 Americans paid an average of 19.9% in total federal taxes in the last year for which data are available. Most middle class taxpayers paid higher rates - possibly you did, I know I did.

Great, lets lower all tax rates across the board to 19.9%. Would that make you happy? (I doubt it).