If Biden feels the double barel shotgun is the best weapon for defense,then why doesn't the secret sevice carry them?

[toolbox 0]

I'm pretty sure I've never seen a secret service man using a double barrel shotgun for a service weapon.
You see them with,submachine guns,semi auto hand guns,semi auto and full auto high capacity rifles in 308 and 5.56 cal,but never seen any footage of them with double barrel shotguns.
I bet they are even using some full auto pistol variants as well.

[quade 3]

Because the Secret Service trains to a much higher standard than the average person could ever hope to.

On the other hand I can't think of a single police vehicle I've ever seen that isn't equipped with a shot gun and that includes patrol bikes.

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The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[skinnay 0]

this site really needs a guns forum

[quade 3]

Quote

this site really needs a guns forum

Probably about as much as a gun site needs a skydiving forum.

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The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[toolbox 0]

Using a firearm is not rocket science dude.
It is far easier to shoot a semi auto rifle with accuracy than you think,and the secret service are not magical,mythical creatures.They are most likely far better at drinking and picking up whores than they are at shooting.
In fact I bet many of them have been trained by NRA weapons instructors,just like you can be trained if you have the money,and will to do so.
The police often have semi auto hand guns, and semi auto high capacity rifles,as well as 12 gauge pump shotguns,though I've never seen a long gun on a motorcycle around here.
Not saying they don't have shotguns on police bikes,just never noticed one myself.

[toolbox 0]

>probably about as much as a gunsite needs a skydiving forum.

You have probably never been to a chute and shoot have you?
They are alot of fun.

[quade 3]

Quote

They are most likely far better at drinking and picking up whores than they are at shooting.

Nice. Nice way to respect the people who are tasked with literally taking a bullet to save the leaders of our country.

I am nearly 100% confident they are trained and routinely have to prove they are better shots than just about anyone else you've ever met.

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The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[toolbox 0]

No disrespect intended,just being realistic.
There have been past incidents,even recently.
And since you brought it up,they are pretty much human shields above all else.
I like the way you use liberal indignation to paint me as a bad person though.

[toolbox 0]

>they are better shots than just about anyone else you've ever met.

I know some pretty damn good competitive shooters with handguns,shotguns,and rifles.
My uncle used to be one.
I can hold my own with hanguns,and can shoot ok at closer ranges with a rifle(300 yards),but I'm definitely not sniper grade,but I doubt most secret service men are either.
You are right though,it takes balls to play human shield,and I do not blame those guys for living it up.
I'm pretty sure they get some pretty good pay,health benefits, and retirement as well.
Back to the reason for the post.
If the double barrel shotgun is the best for defense,why does'nt the secret service use them more?

[quade 3]

Besides which, what makes you think you have the inside scoop on what weapons they do and do not have access to on a moment's notice?

Oh, that's right, you saw some film.

Well, just the briefest of web searches shows they're trained with and use the Remington 870 shotgun.
http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2009/RAND_MG819.pdf

Page 103.

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The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 1,623]

A lot of DZ.COM gun enthusiasts also think a shotgun is the best weapon for HOME defense. See previously linked thread on the subject.

It's only since Biden made his statement that the self-styled "experts" with BDS seem to have changed their minds. Reflects more negatively on them than on Biden.

See also THIS thread.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kawisixer01 0]

Shotguns can be substantially more deadly than any rifle out there. The amount of projectiles, and their size inside of one shell is pretty wild. Biden's suggestion just completely shows his lack of knowledge of ballistics and gun laws as well. This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0o7YgiTFm4 shows an interesting perspective of shotgun vs. semi-auto sporting rifle. The fact that no mass killer has used a shotgun loaded with a buckshot round just reinforces the fact that the typical mass killer is not a law abiding gun enthusiast that has the least bit of knowledge about ballistics. I would much rather face a guy with an AR than a guy with a shotty and heavy load.

[toolbox 0]

Come on now,a shot gun is great for spraying a big patch of lead at close range,but as you said yourself,they need pin point accuracy.
You do not get pinpoint accuracy with a double barrel shotgun.
If you touch off a double barrel shot gun in a crowd of people to hit one guy,you could hit several poeple.
Shotguns are used primarily for hunting birds because they spray a large wall of lead at them as they are flying by,or in many cases away.

[quade 3]

I see. So even when presented with evidence that makes your entire line of reasoning moot . . . you just keep right on going.

Brilliant.

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The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[toolbox 0]

I personally do not own a shot gun.
I used to years ago when I was hunting turkey,grouse,and quail.
My favorite was the 20 gauge although a 12 gauge would have been good on the turkey,I still had good luck with the 20.
Shotguns are menacing for sure,but you run the risk of hitting alot more than just your target unless at very,very close range.
I like slow heavy,expanding handgun loads that give good accuracy and wounding potential without as much risk of overpenetration.
That being said,the sound of a 12 gauge pump in the dark is unmistakable if you know it.
I hope I never have to shoot anyone with anything,or hurt anyone with anything,but like the ability to do so if being attacked.
What it all comes down to is personal preference,and mission specifics as to what someone wants to use.
One type of weapon is not the best for every person or every situation.
Once again it is our 2nd amendment right to have these weopons,not just for defense against personal attacks,but to prevent tyranny.

[tkhayes 125]

You are assuming the Secret Service does not have shotguns? I bet thy have a bunch of them and know how to use them on top of that.

[toolbox 0]

So you are saying that because the secret service trains with shotguns that it's the preferred weapon of the secret service?Also big difference between the shotguns they use and a double barrel.
I'm not buying it.
I bet they primarily use semi auto hand guns and bull pupped rifles when close to the person being shielded,and also utilize a few snipers here and there on occasion.
I'm not saying they never use shotguns,just not as much as you imply.
They use mission specific weapons for the task at hand,just like the military,or a hunter would.

[billvon 2,394]

Same reason a bailout rig is probably best for your average pilot - but skydivers don't use em.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

So you are saying that because the secret service trains with shotguns that it's the preferred weapon of the secret service?

Yes, that's exactly what he said.
Oh, wait, no it isn't.

Argue against what people actually say. If you need to put words in their mouths, you're already losing.

[toolbox 0]

I never said they do not have shotguns.
I asked if Biden feels the double barrel is the best for defense,then why do secret service personel use semi auto pistols and rifles,and full auto weapons as well?
I know they have everything,but why carry pistols and rifles if the double barrel shotgun is best?
I'll tell you why. It's because no single weapon is the best for every task.
Shotguns are bad ass,but maybe you do not want something that sprays a wall of lead all in one shot.
Maybe you might need something that is better at hitting a smaller target and is easier to control if follow up shots are needed.
And by the way,you know I was kidding about letting you shoot me with the birdshot at 200 yards earlier right?
Not the hotdogs and beer though.
I know you don't remember me nor do I expect you to.
You are a good guy and you looked pretty cool when you and youre wife came to that holloween party dressed like ketchup and mustard with the dog wearing a bun

[quade 3]

Quote

They use mission specific weapons for the task at hand...

Which is very much NOT the same mission as a person defending their house.

Do you know what weapons were fired by the Secret Service during the Reagan assassination attempt? None. They didn't need to. Hinkley surrendered after he ran out of bullets in his gun which only held six.

Win-win really. Can you imagine if he had more at his disposal? Can you imagine being a Secret Service agent attempting to fire on him with any weapon considering Hinkley was standing in a crowd? Can you imagine attempting to take out just Hinkley with a shot gun?

Your entire line of reasoning is flawed by the simple fact the Secret Service and a home owner have completely different missions.

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The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[toolbox 0]

The missions can be very similar as well.
What if someone is going after one of your loved ones with a knife?
They are only a few feet from them and you are 20 feet away.
Would you blast away with a double barrel shotgun?
I would rather have a nice big bore semi auto hand gun with plenty of capacity to spare,since there is no gaurantee that 1,2,3,or even 10 hits are going to stop someone immediately,but it's better than the alternative of watching someone get stabbed,or getting stabbed trying to save someone.
As far as full auto weapons are concerned,they waste alot of lead and are only good for spraying a wall of bullets at a large group of charging men or vehicles without great accuracy,and I see no need for them outside of military use,or for the secret sevice use defending against well trained groups of heavily armed attackers.

[champu 1]

What the fuck are you two even arguing about anymore? You both sound like fools.

Joe Biden made a really stupid argument in favor of banning "assault weapons" saying you'd be better off going outside with a double barrel shotgun and firing it off twice into the air to scare people away than defending yourself with an AR-15 or something similar. It was an indefensibly stupid response to the question that was asked, and the fact that other types of shotguns do make good home defense weapons does not change the fact that it was an indefensibly stupid response.

Now toolbox starts a thread saying, "well why doesn't the secret service use double barrel shotguns?" Of all the professional armed entities out there, I think the secret service is probably the worst one you could choose to make the point that double barrel shotguns are not intended to be combat weapons. So this thread gets off to a great start.

Next quade jumps in saying the secret service are super-human and all police cars have some type of shotgun as far as he can remember. Which makes absolutely no fucking sense as a response.

toolbox proceeds to ramble on aimlessly about firearms training.

quade follows up by snidely suggesting toolbox gets his firearms knowledge from movies, and then immediately states that he gets his firearms knowledge from google, and demonstrates he's not very good at adding value to his google searches because the Remington 870 is not the type of shotgun Joe Biden's comment and the OP was about.

Followed by more rambling... followed by more snide comments...

[Kennedy 0]

Once again, some fact might help you, quade. First, something like 90% of Secret Service are not Protection. First you have uniformed vs special agents. The agency's mission goes from financial crimes to electronic crimes to protecting a very small number of people. The vast majority are trained only to the level of a law enforcement officer. The small number of special agents assigned to protection are generally recognized as their best. However, I don't know if they ever carry shotguns on duty. Shotguns are generally issued to the uniformed division, and I'd imagine some investigatory field divisions. The protection agents on the other hand carry pistols, carbines, rifles, and subcompact full autos (FN five-seven, sub MP5 and 10, etc). I'm not saying uniform don't carry pistols, they obviously do, and probably some are issued semiauto black rifles. But the ones you are setting on a pedestal are not the ones using the Remington 870.

Also, I'm not sure if you're unaware or intentionally obfuscating, the 870 is a pump action. A pump is very different from a double barrel (o/u or side by side). Pumps are much more useful in any shooting scenario. Double barrels are nice in that there are the fewest controls, they're cheapest, and they may be the simplest to learn, but anyone with time and a few extra dollars will choose a pump everytime.

A big part of why people are calling Biden an idiot (in this instance) is because he said double barrel and then gave unsafe, unsound, and most likely illegal advice.

PS - you've gotten into a nasty habit of passing off your opinion as fact, or at the very least the only acceptable/logical/intelligent conclusion. You're hardly alone in that, but it was a lot more enjoyable when you debated or discussed things rather than piss on others.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[quade 3]

Including yours.

Fascinating.

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The World's Most Boring Skydiver