Women in Front Line Combat

[lawrocket 3]

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Suppose you are on patrol with a 135lb woman and you weigh 265lbs

I weighed 175-180 when I was in. And the women were usually around 130-135.

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You get wounded by a sniper but are still alive as long as you can get medical treatment within 15 minutes. Would you rather have a 135lb woman to drag you to safety of a 220lb male?

You don't understand combat. Or snipers. You are setting up a false choice, like "would you rather have a child live with a wholesome heterosexual family or a couple of gay sex offenders?" The answer to the question is clear, but he situation isn't ever that cut and dried.

WHo do I want helping me? A medic. You know how many people it takes to carry a litter? Two. You know what she may be good for? Throwing smoke and laying suppressive fire while others come and drag me away.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

I'll put it this way. The complaints are being lodged by people who have never served closely with women. THose of us who have served with women are the ones defending them.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[pchapman 261]

Serving in combat roles makes total sense. What physical standards to pick for infantry though, that's a tougher issue. We're still talking equality of opportunity here, not Affirmative Action.

It would sure be easier if everyone came in similar sizes -- whether 135 lb or 200 lbs. Within each group, they would be able to drag each other to safety better. Those who actually know about these things will have a better handle on what kinds of loads can be carried by different sized people of different types. Other countries where males are on average smaller have to get by with all their soldiers being smaller. (Studying that, one would have to get into issues of variable vs. fixed equipment weight, absolute strength, and strength vs. weight. It reminds me of the old WWII Jap thoughts about compact, powerful Japs vs. gangly Americans.) If all you had were 135 lb females, you could cram more of them into a combat vehicle than all those 200 lb males... (although with equipment the differential will be less).

And as with any job, the question is what standards are appropriate for the job overall -- and physical standards can't help but be more important for infantry.

[Gravitymaster 0]

I'd rather depend on someone closer to my own size and strength. I'd hate to die because my "partner" was unable to help me get to safety.

[davjohns 1]

Great. Now, we are talking about all female units...like the all black units and all japanese units, etc.

Leave it alone. The military will work it out.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Great. Now, we are talking about all female units...like the all black units and all japanese units, etc.

Leave it alone. The military will work it out.

Race and Gender are 2 completely different issues.

[lawrocket 3]

Right. I remember when coloreds weren't allowed to fly because they didn't have the capability to do it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[labrys 0]

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I'll put it this way. The complaints are being lodged by people who have never served closely with women.

5 minutes of awesome

Owned by Remi #?

[davjohns 1]

Most of us don't much care. I will point out that there are going to be some growing pains. There always are. The military is use to change. It's what we do.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Right. I remember when coloreds weren't allowed to fly because they didn't have the capability to do it.

Right, until they demonstrated they were capable.

Do you seriously not see the difference?

As I said previously, if a woman can demostrate she can pass the physical and mental aspects to perform in a combat position, then let her do it. Just don't lower the standards for political reason and put lives at risk. I seriously doubt a 95 lb woman could be as effective tossing a 265 lb male over her shoulder as a 185 lb male.

Argue all you want, it just makes you look silly.

[weekender 0]

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If a woman can schlep a full compliment of field gear day in and day out and function in a world of carnage, she's cut out for the Infantry. Not everybody is.

Nailed it, right there.

And if, for some reason, the standards are changed, they'd damn well better be changed for both men and women.

And those women who are noticeably impacted by menstruation (i.e. who don't function well when they're on their period?). Yeah, that makes you less qualified for infantry.

Wendy P.

I was in the Army Infantry. i was a 5'7'' 160lb Citadel grad. I was a very fit young man and it was tough. i admit i struggled at times with the loads. I doubt few women could meet the same standards. my fear is they will lower them for politics. if they do that, i dont want women in combat. i would have no problem serving with a women who met the same standards as me, though. none.

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[Gravitymaster 0]

Do you support women being required to register for the draft when they turn 18?

[labrys 0]

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Do you support women being required to register for the draft when they turn 18?

Absolutely. In my opinion we already should have been required.

Owned by Remi #?

[billvon 2,396]

>That wasn't my question.

I know. I took your question into the real world.

[weekender 0]

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Do you support women being required to register for the draft when they turn 18?

Cruiser: I joined the army 'cause my father and my brother were in the army. I thought I'd better join before I got drafted.
Sergeant Hulka: Son, there ain't no draft no more.
Cruiser: There was one?

"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>That wasn't my question.

I know. I took your question into the real world.

You mean, your world. Big difference.

[billvon 2,396]

>You mean, your world. Big difference.

No, real world. The "95 lb woman vs 200lb male" is a strawman, one you invented. In the real world you'll depend on the people you serve with.

[ianmdrennan 2]

In the real world there are 135 pound men too, serving....Gravitymaster doesn't take that into account too.

IMO, the standards should be identical. Anyone meeting them is qualified (male or female), anyone not is not qualified (male or female).

I fail to see this as a gender thing, but rather as a requirements thing.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[rehmwa 2]

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I fail to see this as a gender thing, but rather as a requirements thing.

absolutely - the job will have requirements. and as long as an individual can meet them, they can do the job.

This is how everything should work, not just military. And as long as they don't have separate standards to artificially load to some kind of affirmative action goal, I'm all for it. (But I do worry that some politician will try to do just that).

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,121]

As long as there are infinite numbers of criteria that can be considered, there will be subjective criteria.

And "works well on teams," "will work well with our team," "communicates well," are subjective, and relevant to plenty of jobs.

And how does one determine the comparative value of a 3.2 at Stanford, vs. a 4.0 at Poedunk College?

I think AA goals are over-applied. But waiting for workplaces chock full of people who "have always had this kind" of employee to all of a sudden start evaluating only objective criteria is disingenuous.

There isn't a good answer. By no means. But that goes both ways. You can wait a long damn time for people to "do the right thing."

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[davjohns 1]

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Right. I remember when coloreds weren't allowed to fly because they didn't have the capability to do it.

Right, until they demonstrated they were capable.

Do you seriously not see the difference?

As I said previously, if a woman can demostrate she can pass the physical and mental aspects to perform in a combat position, then let her do it. Just don't lower the standards for political reason and put lives at risk. I seriously doubt a 95 lb woman could be as effective tossing a 265 lb male over her shoulder as a 185 lb male.

Argue all you want, it just makes you look silly.

Mostly, I need to to carry her own stuff, be able to toss a grenade, keep up, and put accurate fire on target. If I get hit, I mostly need her to be able to relieve a tension pneumothorax, apply a chitosan bandage, apply a tourniquet, or insert a nasopharyngeal airway.

I have thought about this issue for about 28 years now. I have no problem going into combat with a properly conditioned and trained female. My concern is the special tortures she has in store should she become a captive.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Bertt 0]

As it stands right now, that 95 lb. woman is a combat medic, and I bet you'll rely on her.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[wmw999 2,121]

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I have thought about this issue for about 28 years now. I have no problem going into combat with a properly conditioned and trained female. My concern is the special tortures she has in store should she become a captive.

Valid thoughts from someone in a good position to have them.

I agree that women are likely to be subject to different treatment if captured in some places.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

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Mostly, I need to to carry her own stuff, be able to toss a grenade, keep up, and put accurate fire on target. If I get hit, I mostly need her to be able to relieve a tension pneumothorax, apply a chitosan bandage, apply a tourniquet, or insert a nasopharyngeal airway.

{I got this G-master}

oh......yeah?.......welll......
what if you need your "partner" to apply a 180 lb chitosan bandage. You think some 73 lb woman can even pick it up? or even unwrap the sterile packaging?
HUH?? HUH!!!!!?????? then you'll change your tune mister

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[davjohns 1]

LOL...you got me. I had to read that twice to figure out you failed to use the sarcasm font.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.