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dpreguy

Universal background check equals gun registration

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I've been wondering about the call for "universal background checks". At first glance it seems harmless and reasonable. But, consider the following: Looked up the contents of it. Federal Form EZ 4473 is what they are suggesting. The headlines and posters are not mentioning that this also covers "transfers"-not just sales. This Federal Form 4473 requires the ID of the firearm by it's description and serial number, and the names addresses and government issued ID of the transferor and transferee. The result is that within one generation, and of course incrementally as it goes along, EVERY FIREARM LEGALLY TRANSFERRED will be "registered", or at least recorded along with the transferor and transferee and their addresses and other ID info.. Make no mistake about this. The anti gun forces are pushing the universal background check idea to make sure all firearms and the names and addresses and soc sec or drivers license numbers of their owners are in one database, making outright confiscation possible and confiscation by fee a predictable event. (Example is that it now costs a resident of New York to pay a semiannual fee of somewhere around $300 -have to google this- just to have it in your house) Confiscation by fee is happening now in New York, and confiscation by fee or just outright confiscation is only a legislative decision away by governmental fiat at the whim of the Feinsteins and Bloomburgs and their ilk.

Do not be deceived by the seeming innocence or claimed reasonableness of the call for "universal background checks". It will take only a few years, and without question the passage of only one generation to have defacto registration of every legally transferred firearm in our country. Then cherry pick those for outright confiscation or just keep imposing and increasing the fees to own them and most of them will be gone to overnment smelters. And make no mistake -that is the intent.

Look up Form 4473 and see for yourself. This isn't science fiction. It is now.

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That is already the case with existing background checks. The only thing that keeps it from becoming a registration database is that pro-gun republicans have made it law that the info from these forms which the NICS FBI center receives MUST be destroyed within a certain number of days, and NO data collection can be done from them. That little line item in the law is the only thing stopping them. It's a very delicate and fragile bulwark against centralized government gun registration.

The paper forms themselves are required to be stored by the gun dealers, and made available to law enforcement for traces when necessary. So a gun trace now starts with the manufacturer, whose paperwork tells them to which dealer they sent the firearm. Then the dealer's paperwork shows to which individual the firearm was sold. Tens of thousands of these traces are done every year - it's a system that works, prevents abuse, and avoids a centralized gun owner database.

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I am aware of the 6 month data erasure requirement now existing, but I don't trust the data to remain unavailable when disorder may occur. Paper information can be ordered to be computerized and computer data is recoverable if one has the expertise. Does anyone really think the same paper forms restrictions and 6 month data purging/destruction idea will survive this present wave of hysteria and nonsensical ideas now posited by the anti gun crowd? I simply am saying that the new universal background check sought is destined to grow in scope and content and is not likely to be so limited as the present rules now dictate. There will be many who will advocate that 6 months data storage be increased to a year, and then two years and then 5 years and so on, to the point where the data may never be erased, or even if it is, to be recoverable in case of national emergency.. A governor can use his executive power to suspend laws in an emergency, and so can the president and so can congress, both the executive powers and congress's powers can order outright confiscation in the name of an emergency...can order computer experts to unpurge/retrieve this registry information held in the computers of the states and the national government in a declared emergency. etc etc.
Would they? The anti gun crowd will want them to, and continue to drive their cause with hysteria and emotion; and I predict eventually make a serious run at abolishing the second amendment itself and go for total disarmament. Will these scenarios play out? They might or might not. In the meantime, the seeming reasonableness of the universal background check should be outed in it's intent, and viewed with great suspicion as a huge first step towards total gun registration- the only ultimate purpose of total gun registration being total confiscation by order or fee.

If readers think my scenarios are paranoia, or impossible, just look in the newspapers for a daily list of the laws now being proposed in our state legislatures and by cities covering not only guns, but crossbows, swords and other devices, along with fees (small at first) and storage requirements and locks etc.. The intent is there, and universal background checks for transfers of guns and other devices are going to be proposed with conditions far in excess of the present background check rules. Will reason prevail or will hysteria?

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That is already the case with existing background checks. The only thing that keeps it from becoming a registration database is that pro-gun republicans have made it law that the info from these forms which the NICS FBI center receives MUST be destroyed within a certain number of days, and NO data collection can be done from them. That little line item in the law is the only thing stopping them. It's a very delicate and fragile bulwark against centralized government gun registration.

The paper forms themselves are required to be stored by the gun dealers, and made available to law enforcement for traces when necessary. So a gun trace now starts with the manufacturer, whose paperwork tells them to which dealer they sent the firearm. Then the dealer's paperwork shows to which individual the firearm was sold. Tens of thousands of these traces are done every year - it's a system that works, prevents abuse, and avoids a centralized gun owner database.



I dont beleive for a minute that this data is destroyed
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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cody teti Thank you for your information. I agree with you to the extent that the background check system in place with NCIC etc. now for retail shops is working to prevent some prohibited classes of persons from buying. I am not even opposed to background checks for buyers for private transfers as long as it doesn't ever identify the weapon by make model or serial number, and the government cannot have records of that transfer. For example: If John Hinkley were to be released, (actually, I think he already has furloughs) and starts mumbling about Jodie foster, I would not want him to be able to buy a gun from a shop or a private citizen. How to do this without the defacto regsistration danger is the tricky wicket.

I am not well informed as to how the EZ form filled out by the gun shops is stored or who has access to it or how the records are handled/destroyed, or if they are destroyed at all, or anything. I think you are better informed than I am on that. I am simply opposed to any background check system that will result in the our states, cities or federal agencies even temporarily having a list of gun owners with their addresses and serial numbers and type and makes of guns. It is my belief that if there are such lists, even temporary ones, there will be ways and situations where the governments will access them. Keeping guns out of the hands of mental defectives, and stalkers and such is a goal shared by everyone. How to do it without the governments having lists/records is a problem for creative minds. Anyway, thank you for your intelligent post.

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A couple of things

It is possible to insure that a buyer is legally able to privately purchase a weapon with out a back ground check done at the time of sale. In Iowa there are two ways
First, once a year you go to your sherrifs office, pay $5 bucks and fill out a permit to purchase request form. Two days later you can pick up your permit to purchase. It is good for a year and it can be used to purchase a weapon (In Iowa) without a NICS check as the permit is basicly a nics check. Iowa laws says that you must have the permit to buy a hand gun (or do the NICS check) All FFL's that I know require the purchase permit for long guns too even though that is not a legal requirment

An Iowa conceal weapons permit doubles as a permit to purchase too. It is good for 5 years

As for the paper work when buying. It is held as the dealers place of business. The records can be acessed by LEO's if needed but it is not sent to the Feds
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Andy 9 I agree with you. No government should be allowed to have lists of gun owners or the guns they possess.
rushmc In Iowa:
1. Does the permit to purchase identitfy each firearm with make model and serial number?
2. How are private sales of pistols handled in Iowa?
3. Can a father give a pistol to his son w/o paperwork or can a deceased give a pistol to his someone by inheritance w/o paperwork?

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Andy 9 I agree with you. No government should be allowed to have lists of gun owners or the guns they possess.
rushmc In Iowa:
1. Does the permit to purchase identitfy each firearm with make model and serial number?
Yes and No, you can buy as many guns as you wish. Private purchases would have no paper trail. From FFL's the normal paperwork will be filled out
2. How are private sales of pistols handled in Iowa?
The seller is to insure that the buyer has one of the permits.
3. Can a father give a pistol to his son w/o paperwork or can a deceased give a pistol to his someone by inheritance w/o paperwork? So far, as I understand it, yes, if they are both from the same state. If the weapon is to cross a state line then the transfer is supposed to go through an FFL


"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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As for the paper work when buying. It is held as the dealers place of business. The records can be acessed by LEO's if needed but it is not sent to the Feds



AFAIK, the FFL can destroy the records after 20 years, but if he/she goes out of buisiness before that time, the records go to the fed.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

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AFAIK, the FFL... if he/she goes out of buisiness before that time, the records go to the fed.



Right, and I'm not sure what happens to those records from out-of-business dealers. They may be getting computerized...



I wouldn't be surprised. Also, when they go through records while researching crime guns, etc., they are known to photograph or copy much more than what's pertinent to the investigation. "Multiple sales" also have details reported to ATF. Some of that is noted here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act#Registry_prohibition

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

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I think I'm getting all of this, but: if "universal background checks" are required, how does a private seller get this bkgrnd check done? And, if his univ bkgrnd check idea is passed, I think it will be on this existing EZ form, the same or somewhat modified version of it. This private seller will have to fill out and hold onto? the EZ form or a copy, and the ID's of him, the transferor and the ID of the transferee and the make model and serial number of the firearm is entered into that EZ form and sent in to the feds? This is defacto registration as I see it. One 'lives in being' interval away from all guns and owners being in a fed or state registry.

The call for "universal background checks" seems to me to be a very obvious defacto gun registration scheme. Slow moving at first, but relentless if it passes.

This is what is being loudly promoted, and the media is eating it up, and each commentator is driving home the reasonableness of this. They are all targeting (forgive the pun) the so-called "gun show loophole" which is nothing more than a private sale, done in the parking lot or at a display table.

How to make sure, (for example) John Hinckley, if released, doesn't buy a gun from a private seller is the dilemma, as I am sure no one wants him or anyone else who is such a mental defective, or felons who were convicted of a violent crime and other evil persons to be able to purchase from any source. Dealer or private. How to accomplish this without actual or defacto registration is the problem to solve. Ideas? Doing nothing is an option, but it doesn't look like that idea will endure in the present frenzy.

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tk
It's already being done in New York. Confiscation by fee. Or at least "unable to possess" is here and now.

Handgun in your home must apply for permit $340
(In NY City it expires every 3 yrs, then reapply - another $340)

$94 for instaprint fee, $105 if a paper copy is req.

Must apply to a "licensing officer, who may require a handgun safety course. Average cost of such is $100 to $250

Total cost $540 to $690 to own a pistol in your own home in New York. If you don't pay, you are owning it illegally.
I don't know what the fees are if you own multiple hand guns.

"Confiscation" or simply being unable to possess are the same. If you are arrested for this violation the gun is seized as evidence, and you will never get it back. This confiscation by fee is a transparent disarming tactic, and will be part of any gun haters legislative wish list. Municipalities get in the act too, as in new York City.

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same rules (pretty much) apply to auto registration in NYC. If you don't pay you lose our driving privileges,

granted you do not lose your car, but you are 'forced' to comply. So I am OK with being 'forced to comply' in both the case for guns and cars.

Comply and get your gun back. Comply and get your car back. works for me.

We do not have the data we need to diagnose the problem of how guns go from 'legal' to illegal. Every single gun out there was 'legal' at the time that it was manufactured (at least here int eh USA). At some point so many of them become 'illegal', yet we ban the very tools we need to track where they came from how they moved and we could very well fix the 'holes' if we only had the information.

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It's not illegal not to register your car. You just can't drive it on the roads. It can set in your driveway and you won't get arrested. You aren't a criminal just because you didn't register your car. And you don't have a constitutional right to own or drive a car.
However, if you don't have the money to pay for New York's pistol registration, you can be arrested for possessing a pistol because you didn't register it As in any criminal case, they will seize it for evidence, and you will never get it back.

No person should have to pay to talk on a corner (free speech), or have to pay to go to church,(freedom of religion) to vote(no poll tax) or pay anything to own a firearm. I don't understand why those who oppose having to pay to vote feel that gun owners should have to pay anything to own a gun. They just have an anti gun, and an anti self defense mindset, and aren't really bothered by this obvious conflict of views regarding constitutional rights.

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1: The guns are stolen.... 2:Straw-man purchase by girl friends and/or family members....3: Purchased through private sales.... And the private sales is very very small....

What do you need more research for... You think that you will find some magic place that no one knows about....:S

Now, Stealing guns is already illegal... Straw-man purchases are already illegal.... And they are not stopping bad guy guns in the city's... So, Lets make more laws that don't work...:S

Killler...

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same rules (pretty much) apply to auto registration in NYC. If you don't pay you lose our driving privileges,

granted you do not lose your car, but you are 'forced' to comply. So I am OK with being 'forced to comply' in both the case for guns and cars.

Comply and get your gun back. Comply and get your car back. works for me.

We do not have the data we need to diagnose the problem of how guns go from 'legal' to illegal. Every single gun out there was 'legal' at the time that it was manufactured (at least here int eh USA). At some point so many of them become 'illegal', yet we ban the very tools we need to track where they came from how they moved and we could very well fix the 'holes' if we only had the information.



Maybe I'm picking nits, but it seems kind of important. Do the guns become illegal when posesed by someone who does not have a legal right to posses firearms? I suggest that there are very few illegal firearms in the US. (example home made guns or those converted to automatic fire) The problem is illegal firearm possesion.

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o person should have to pay to talk on a corner (free speech), or have to pay to go to church,(freedom of religion) to vote(no poll tax) or pay anything to own a firearm. I don't understand why those who oppose having to pay to vote feel that gun owners should have to pay anything to own a gun.



I'm mostly in agreement with you on this point. One NYC-area federal judge recently ruled that a $340 fee every 3 years for licensing was not overly burdensome, and thus was not unconstitutional. On balance, after considering both sides' arguments and the judge's reasoning, I disagreed with that judge; I would have ruled the opposite, on constitutional grounds.

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