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Two firefighters shot dead at blaze

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Google the name "Scott Miller" and "firefighter." Ask yourself whether the acts and motivations have changed or whether it's just a matter of public perception shifting. There was a firefighter shot on Long Island a couple of years ago. A few years ago a three firefighters were shot outside of St. Louis responding to a call. There are other incidents.

Didn't make the news much then. But, then again, there wasn't much political hay to make. I don't know whether this deserves less attention. I think the others deserved more. But now's a different emotional time.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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Google the name "Scott Miller" and "firefighter." Ask yourself whether the acts and motivations have changed or whether it's just a matter of public perception shifting. There was a firefighter shot on Long Island a couple of years ago. A few years ago a three firefighters were shot outside of St. Louis responding to a call. There are other incidents.

Didn't make the news much then. But, then again, there wasn't much political hay to make. I don't know whether this deserves less attention. I think the others deserved more. But now's a different emotional time.



Sure sound like another crazy who got himself a gun.

But, as you keep telling us, Counselor, crazy people have the right...

Our inalienable right to life takes a distant second place.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Sure sound like another crazy who got himself a gun.



News quote about the shooter: "He had previously served a 17-year jail sentence after being convicted of killing his grandmother."

What the heck was he doing out of prison? And if he had served a prison sentence for murder, then he was disqualified from gun ownership. But he managed to get one anyway, and did so in a state with very tough gun laws. Gun laws don't stop murderers. The real question here seems to be: Why was this man let out of prison?

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previously served a 17-year jail sentence after being convicted of killing his grandmother." ***

sounds like the crazy fucker was the morons who let him out.

obviously this guy was totally safe to release from prison

oh and in case you missed it, he was in prison, the offences that get you there generally carry with it the penalty of losing your gun rights.

Yup, thats right - this guy wasnt allowed to have a weapon so he was breaking the law

so what new law will you propose that would have actually stopped him from illegally owning a weapon?
are we still on the pipe dream of banning all weapons? oh that will work.... as I am sure that all criminals will pay attention to THAT law.

Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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Sure sound like another crazy who got himself a gun.



News quote about the shooter: "He had previously served a 17-year jail sentence after being convicted of killing his grandmother."

What the heck was he doing out of prison? And if he had served a prison sentence for murder, then he was disqualified from gun ownership. But he managed to get one anyway, and did so in a state with very tough gun laws. Gun laws don't stop murderers. The real question here seems to be: Why was this man let out of prison?




http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/24/us/new-york-firefighters-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Quote

(CNN) -- A man convicted of killing his grandmother decades ago allegedly ambushed firefighters on Monday, fatally shooting two of them as they arrived to battle a blaze in upstate New York, police said.

Two other firefighters were wounded in the attack in the Rochester-area town of Webster. Investigators believe the suspect, William Spengler, 62, deliberately lured them to a house fire, Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering said.

Authorities do not know how Spengler, who died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound at the scene, obtained the weapon he used in Monday's shooting or why he opened fire, Pickering told reporters.

Spengler was convicted in 1981 of first-degree manslaughter in the death of his grandmother and had been released on supervised parole, Pickering said.

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I just saw this on the wire. This is disgusting...

So, a former convict who was released after murdering a family member. Those gun laws sure kept that bad guy from getting guns, huh???



Why the surprise, the gun lobby has rendered the gun laws useless.

The clear solution is for the NRA to pay to put an armed guard on every fire truck.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Easy, easy,...

Wait a few days and LaPierre (and his deranged NRA brethen), will state that all firefighters need to carry guns. Only after having secured the location of the blaze, will they be allowed to fire "fight".

Otherwise it is "Open Fire!"....




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Google the name "Scott Miller" and "firefighter." Ask yourself whether the acts and motivations have changed or whether it's just a matter of public perception shifting. There was a firefighter shot on Long Island a couple of years ago. A few years ago a three firefighters were shot outside of St. Louis responding to a call. There are other incidents.

Didn't make the news much then. But, then again, there wasn't much political hay to make. I don't know whether this deserves less attention. I think the others deserved more. But now's a different emotional time.



Sure sound like another crazy who got himself a gun.

But, as you keep telling us, Counselor, crazy people have the right...

Our inalienable right to life takes a distant second place.

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previously served a 17-year jail sentence after being convicted of killing his grandmother." ***

sounds like the crazy fucker was the morons who let him out.

obviously this guy was totally safe to release from prison

oh and in case you missed it, he was in prison, the offences that get you there generally carry with it the penalty of losing your gun rights.

Yup, thats right - this guy wasnt allowed to have a weapon so he was breaking the law

so what new law will you propose that would have actually stopped him from illegally owning a weapon?
are we still on the pipe dream of banning all weapons? oh that will work.... as I am sure that all criminals will pay attention to THAT law.

Roy



We have no effective gun laws, because the gun lobby saw to it that there are huge loopholes that allow anyone to avoid a background check with trivial ease.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Sure sound like another crazy who got himself a gun.



News quote about the shooter: "He had previously served a 17-year jail sentence after being convicted of killing his grandmother."

What the heck was he doing out of prison? And if he had served a prison sentence for murder, then he was disqualified from gun ownership. But he managed to get one anyway, and did so in a state with very tough gun laws. Gun laws don't stop murderers. The real question here seems to be: Why was this man let out of prison?




http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/24/us/new-york-firefighters-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Quote

(CNN) -- A man convicted of killing his grandmother decades ago allegedly ambushed firefighters on Monday, fatally shooting two of them as they arrived to battle a blaze in upstate New York, police said.

Two other firefighters were wounded in the attack in the Rochester-area town of Webster. Investigators believe the suspect, William Spengler, 62, deliberately lured them to a house fire, Webster Police Chief Gerald Pickering said.

Authorities do not know how Spengler, who died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound at the scene, obtained the weapon he used in Monday's shooting or why he opened fire, Pickering told reporters.

Spengler was convicted in 1981 of first-degree manslaughter in the death of his grandmother and had been released on supervised parole, Pickering said.



This one was easy. Here we have someone who is arguably crazy and has already demonstrated his penchant for killing. No "what if" questions here! I say we should arrest his parole "supervisor" and whoever made the decision to let him go in the first place. The American civil liberties lobby and criminal defense lawyers have rendered the criminal justice system toothless. Now we have 2 firefighters lured to their murders.

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In your haste to vent your understandable outrage, you're displaying a lack of factual understanding of the criminal justice system on about 6 different levels. This being 6:30 pm on Christmas Eve (killing time while wife's beautifying), I'm not going to take the time to type out a more detailed explanation.

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Spengler was convicted in 1981 of first-degree manslaughter in the death of his grandmother and had been released on supervised parole, Pickering said.



Granny was 92 years old, and he beat her to death with a hammer.

What the hell was he doing out of prison?

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How cute! The ignorant liberals will never learn on DZ.... What a bunch of morons! The obvious is there.....here is some reading for the fools out there, there is also a video for the ignorant liberals that cant read
http://houston.culturemap.com/newsdetail/12-17-12-texas-movie-theater-shooting-creates-chaos-and-fear-but-quick-thinking-security-guard-steps-in/
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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Spengler was convicted in 1981 of first-degree manslaughter in the death of his grandmother and had been released on supervised parole, Pickering said.



Granny was 92 years old, and he beat her to death with a hammer.

What the hell was he doing out of prison?



He did his time. 1st degree manslaughter has a max sentence of 25 years.

http://newyorkcriminaldefenseblawg.com/2011/01/understanding-the-basic-differences-between-murder-in-the-second-degree-penal-law-125-25-manslaughter-in-the-first-degree-penal-law-125-20-and-manslaughter-in-the-second-degree-penal-law-125-15/

I'm not saying that I think he should have been out, or that I agree with the sentence or any of that. Just that he's out because his sentence was done.

And a lot of states like to release the older prisoners because they represent less of a threat (in theory) and they cost a lot more due to increased medical expenses.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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In your haste to vent your understandable outrage, you're displaying a lack of factual understanding of the criminal justice system on about 6 different levels. This being 6:30 pm on Christmas Eve (killing time while wife's beautifying), I'm not going to take the time to type out a more detailed explanation.



My comment really didn't come from "outrage". Also, I'm sure you even understand that it really had nothing to do with any failings of the criminal justice system, or supervisors or lawyers. In the context of John's point that "the gun lobby" had deliberately rendered gun laws "toothless", I was simply, if not sarcastically, pointing out that here is a clear case of someone who shouldn't have a gun getting one and committing murder. Laws unambiguously "prevent" this guy from having access to a gun ...unlike many mass murderers who had not yet been identified as "crazy". It was a good example of how laws, toothless or not, don't keep guns from someone who intends to get one regardless of consequences. Many of the crazies expect to die in the end. I'm still not sure where John is going with his comments regarding "the gun lobby" or background checks, or even mental evaluations, but if we're going to assign culpability, who gets it in the firefighter murders? If we can't keep a convicted murderer under supervised parole from getting a gun and committing arson and murder how are we going to prevent crazies who have yet to be identified as such from getting firearms? Yes, there are answers. But that brings my question ...how far do we want to go?

Two quotes --

“The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it." ~JFK's speechwriter

“Children are the world's most valuable resource and its best hope for the future.” ~also JFK's speechwriter

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In your haste to vent your understandable outrage, you're displaying a lack of factual understanding of the criminal justice system on about 6 different levels. This being 6:30 pm on Christmas Eve (killing time while wife's beautifying), I'm not going to take the time to type out a more detailed explanation.



My comment really didn't come from "outrage". Also, I'm sure you even understand that it really had nothing to do with any failings of the criminal justice system, or supervisors or lawyers. In the context of John's point that "the gun lobby" had deliberately rendered gun laws "toothless", I was simply, if not sarcastically, pointing out that here is a clear case of someone who shouldn't have a gun getting one and committing murder. Laws unambiguously "prevent" this guy from having access to a gun ...unlike many mass murderers who had not yet been identified as "crazy". It was a good example of how laws, toothless or not, don't keep guns from someone who intends to get one regardless of consequences. Many of the crazies expect to die in the end. I'm still not sure where John is going with his comments regarding "the gun lobby" or background checks, or even mental evaluations, but if we're going to assign culpability, who gets it in the firefighter murders? If we can't keep a convicted murderer under supervised parole from getting a gun and committing arson and murder how are we going to prevent crazies who have yet to be identified as such from getting firearms? Yes, there are answers. But that brings my question ...how far do we want to go?

Two quotes --

“The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it." ~JFK

“Children are the world's most valuable resource and its best hope for the future.” ~also JFK



No the laws do NOT prevent people like this from getting guns. That is the problem. The gun lobby worked very hard to ensure that all the checks can be circumvented with minimal or no effort.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Yes, it's obvious that every fire truck should have an armed guard.



As I understand it, nearly every fire call in Chicago gets armed protection from police and has been that way for over 20 years

Considering the gun laws there one has to wonder why?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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No the laws do NOT prevent people like this from getting guns. That is the problem. The gun lobby worked very hard to ensure that all the checks can be circumvented with minimal or no effort.



Extremely misleading comment

Once convicted of a felony you loose your right to have guns

Each state has its own process that can provide one to get that right back
The gun lobby has little to do with this unless they are fighting shit like, a wife files for a no contact order so the cops can take your guns

And to say the gun lobby works hard to circumvent check is a fucking bald face lie
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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......
No the laws do NOT prevent people like this from getting guns. That is the problem.



Exactly! (that's why I put "prevent" in parentheses) No law would or could prevent that ...unless the firearm is prevented from being manufactured in the first place. As long as the gun exists there is always the possibility that it could end up in the "wrong hands". Every firearm has a paper trail ...right up to the point that it is stolen or illegally transferred. I'm pretty sure that if the firearm is used in a crime, the last legal owner might have some explaining to do.

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The gun lobby worked very hard to ensure that all the checks can be circumvented with minimal or no effort.



1. What, specifically, did the gun lobby do to ensure this easy access to guns ...and why? How is it to the advantage of "big gun" to let crazies and criminals get guns so easily?

2. What, specifically, can be done to fix the problem deliberately created by the gun lobby?

I might be mistaken but I think your issues with the laws are here (in bold):

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: May an unlicensed person obtain ammunition from an out-of-State source?

Yes, provided he or she is not a person prohibited from possessing or receiving ammunition.
[18 U.S.C. 922(g) and (n)]

I think you advocate some sort of psychological evaluation for each purchase or transfer?

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