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piisfish

As a civilian, did you have to use your gun ?

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not so much a gun but any sort of weapon. I was an assistant manager in a department chain for some time. Several times we followed shop lifters out of the store to be able to point them out to police or to identify their vehicles - sometimes with security staff, sometimes without. Once we had a knife pulled on us. Some of these people were scary.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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"When Seconds Count, The Police Are Only Minutes Away"



We need to realize that we are relegating ourselves to the position of sheep in our society. If this continues we will have no right to complain about being treated like sheep: the lucky ones spend their entire life being herded and (literally) fleeced, the unlucky ones are sent helplessly to slaughter.

While the phrase above is often spoken tongue-in-cheek to criticize police officers, there is some unavoidable truth in the statement. The response time of emergency personnel of ANY variety (police, fire, EMS) is measured in minutes. I'm a volunteer firefighter and paramedic, so I know this.

We as individuals NEED to be able to take care of ourselves until the "good guys" can get to us. In EMS, this means knowing CPR and how to use an AED, or how to help a choking child or adult. In fire prevention, this means having a good escape route and accessible fire extinguishers in your house. And, for police issues, this means being EQUIPPED and KNOWLEDGEABLE enough to defend yourself until they can arrive.

Just as in a fire, a safe escape route and good barriers (like good locks on our doors, and an alarm system) are part of the equation. As stressed above, for the properly trained and armed citizen, firearms can be part of the solution as well.

Each of us needs to decide for ourselves what our plan will be, and to evaluate our plan with a very critical eye: the lives at stake will be our own and the ones we most love.

Elvisio "2nd amendment moderate, a dying breed" Rodriguez



EDIT: Sig line superfluity



Some really smart and Brave men in our past had this to say:

" I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." George Mason

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms..." Samuel Adams

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constituition itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence...from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable...the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." George Washinton

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If situational awareness and good decision making are not part of your defensive strategy, you're doing it wrong.

A white dude walking through Compton with a sign that says blacks suck is, in fact, partly to blame for the caps popped in his ass. That doesn't make said cap popping right, but you certainly can't say it wasn't expected.

- Dan G

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>I like this one (I know it's two items, but they are the same point) about as much as
>I like telling the rape victim that "she shouldn't have dressed that way"

or telling a victim of a canopy collision "you should have had your head on a swivel."

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I completely agree that in that case, a weapon was your friend, and for some people, a gun would be better than a knife in the same situation.

I guess I just choose not to prepare for those, since they're pretty rare. I also don't carry a tertiary chute, or a pony tank when I scuba dive. If I were a cave or wreck diver, I might change that last one, but such is life.

Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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>I like this one (I know it's two items, but they are the same point) about as much as
>I like telling the rape victim that "she shouldn't have dressed that way"

or telling a victim of a canopy collision "you should have had your head on a swivel."



good point - if he was purposely taken out by another jumper, then absolutely you are right - it was his fault for being a target. not the attacker

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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>good point - if he was purposely taken out by another jumper, then absolutely you are right

Doesn't matter whether it was purposeful or not. Seeing the other canopy will always put the jumper at an advantage in an impending collision.

Now, when such advice is given on the Incidents forum often it is met with attacks. "How dare you criticize this guy who has a broken pelvis - hasn't he suffered enough?" And there is indeed value in being tactful about such advice. But telling people "here's what you could have done differently to avoid this" is not the same as telling people "you screwed up and it's your fault."

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Yes, preparing for things as best you can, even situations where someone else has the power is a good thing.

Paying attention isn't a substitute for arming yourself. Because you should be allowed to do both.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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>I like this one (I know it's two items, but they are the same point) about as much as
>I like telling the rape victim that "she shouldn't have dressed that way"

or telling a victim of a canopy collision "you should have had your head on a swivel."



good point - if he was purposely taken out by another jumper, then absolutely you are right - it was his fault for being a target. not the attacker



If he had a shotgun he could blow away the guys risers right before they collide, avoiding the impact...
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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I like this one (I know it's two items, but they are the same point) about as much as I like telling the rape victim that "she shouldn't have dressed that way"



I don't like that either. But that doesn't take away that dress and behaviour have an effect on the likelyhood of a rape taking place.

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I have only used my weapons against paper targets and still walking dinner.

I have drawn my weapon in self defense only once. My pistol barely cleared leather before the 3 youths that were trying to rob me pissed their pants and hit the ground spread eagle. I held them at gun point for 21 minutes before the police were on scene. They simply thanked me and sent me on my way after I gave them my statement. The youngest boy at 15 had a warrant out for his arrest for armed assault and robbery the second oldest at 17 had a warrant out for attempted manslaughter and the oldest at 19 was wanted for connection to 2 murders and multiple armed robberies. They were all carrying knives and clubs.

I guess they though I was an easy target. Note: Never try to rob a man with a Chevy pickup with a huge Colt Firearms sticker in the rear window. But then again, they didn't have the brains to wear pants that fit properly, they must not have been able to read either.


But I feel compelled to add some more of my thoughts on here, please forgive my ranting...


I own weapons (guns, knives and bows) for three reasons.
I will list them in ascending order.

#3 As a means to provide food for my family in the event that the normal means and sources become unavailable or unreliable.

#2 As a means to defend myself, and my family and others from those who wish us ill. And trust me when I tell you, I won't hesitate to shoot to kill, and I will sleep well that night knowing a scumbag is no longer a factor to this world.

#1 and the MAIN Reason: To defend myself, my family, and others from a tyrannical government and from foreign invasion.


While there are many that claim this man never said this famous quote, I cannot help but believe the premiss behind it. It truly is irrelevant if the quote is true or not. The fact remains, that the USA is by far, the best country in the world to live, work and visit. Many want to come here to live the dream that is America, many want to invade it to exploit our natural resources and wealth.

Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto:
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

The reason no one has attempted an actual invasion for the purposes of occupation, is that the whole world knows that it would never be successful. The strength and resolve of our amazing, dedicated military men and women is nothing compared to the resolve of the real, dedicated, patriotic citizens of this nation. They also know that the ENTIRE WORLD relies on the United States of America. If the USA falls, the entire world will be plunged into chaos. It may be an arrogant attitude, but it is the truth nonetheless.

How long do you think Canada would last if we didn't buy it's oil, employ its citizens in the auto and many other industries and visit its amazing tourist locations? How do you think China would fair if America didn't pay it's debts and didn't buy it's cheap goods and sell our coal, natural gas and other resources to them? How long would Switzerland, England, and the rest of Europe last without US tourism, investment and natural resources?

America is nothing without the world and the world is nothing without America.

Attacking the very principles and freedoms that make us who we are will only serve to weaken America and the rest of the globe.

Deaths in the USA...
Accidents Ranked #5 122,777 in 2011
Suicide is ranked #10 38,285 in 2011


37,275 people died in transportation related accidents in 2011. 34,677 of those were in motor vehicles.

85,502 people were killed in non-transport related accidents in 2011.
33,554 of those were from exposure to noxious substances and poisoning.
3,555 were from submersion and drowning.
2,621 were from smoke or fire.
851 were from the accidental discharge of a firearm.

38,285 people committed suicide in 2011.
19,766 used a firearm,
18,519 used another method.

15,953 people were killed by homicide in 2011.
11,101 were firearm related.
4,852 used other methods.

32,163 were injured by firearms (that may contain some of those fatalities too)

Drug induced deaths numbered 40,239 in 2011.
Alcohol induced deaths numbered 26,256 in 2011.



The moral of the story is:

The number of deaths in 2011 that were caused by Drugs, Alcohol and Motor Vehicle Accidents total 103,770 people.

The number of firearm related deaths from murder, suicide and accidental discharge in 2011 total 31,718.

Or approximately .0126 Percent of total deaths in the USA in 2011.
Or less than a third of alcohol, drug and motor vehicle accidents.

Where is the outrage over those numbers?

I am curious about the death statistics in China? I bet there are far less firearm deaths...But I would venture a guess and bet there are significant suicide, human rights violation and industrial accident numbers...I would even bet there are significant political related numbers too.

The real issue here is not that there are firearm deaths here in the United States...the issue is that they are being blatantly politicized.

Oh and just my final thoughts. If you are NOT from the USA, keep your opinions about firearm ownership in the USA to yourself. Most of our forefathers fled the countries you are from because of the high taxation, lack of opportunity, tyrannical governments and overall lack of freedom.

Men and women from the USA and her allies died all over the world for freedom from tyranny. While you might not agree with our methods and beliefs, like it or not, the entire world owes a debt of gratitude to America and her allies.

So while we might have an issue with respect, discipline and the proper raising of our youth, what we don't have is civil rights issues, slavery, dictators (well that is debatable too) widespread poverty, cholera, poor health care and lack of available natural resources and farm-able land.

America is an amazing, wonderful place. Even with it's issues and politics. The knee jerk reaction and politicizing of a tragedy as depicted by the blatant liberal leaning mainstream media is just a great a crime against humanity as what that single wack job did in Connecticut.

A gun ban is not the answer. Because guns don't cause violence. Therefore, the gun itself was never in question, the man wielding it was.

It is time to focus on the WHY, not the HOW.
Airline Transport Pilot, Multi-Engine Land, DHC-8
Commercial Multi-Engine Sea, Single Engine Land
Private Glider

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and a bunch of other choices you did not offer up:
- yes, but I (or someone with me) put myself in a dumb-ass situation that was easily preventable
- No, because I am smart enough to avoid 99.9% of the situations that might need one
- I called 911 and that sufficed
- etc.



Yes, because I chose to put myself in the dangerous situation of sitting in my living room, had I been smart enough I may have gone to a safer location. Thankfully I called 911 and waited for them to arrive while someone with a gun threatened me and my family while stealing all my shit.
This shit, right here, is OK

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your 'personal scenario' has no place in a general poll that seeks information from many people. my options are in fact valid options in a 'poll'. But my point of course was that dreamed-up polls like this simply have no value whatsoever, given the unscientific, non-statistically-valid nature of them anyway.

Instead of responding to me with a fantasy scenario of how you might use a gun, your response to the poll would have had more value (to you anyway), but does not make the poll itself any more valid.

My answers would have been both:
- yes, but I (or someone with me) put myself in a dumb-ass situation that was easily preventable
- No, because I am smart enough to avoid 99.9% of the situations that might need one

which were not available answers in the poll. Not fantasy like yours, but reality like mine.

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- yes, but I (or someone with me) put myself in a dumb-ass situation that was easily preventable
- No, because I am smart enough to avoid 99.9% of the situations that might need one



- so far what I take from you and dekker's positions (essentially)

1 - rape victims shouldn't have dressed like that
2 - people should stick with their "own kind" or risk being hurt
3 - and if they do, even accidentally, they shouldn't be allowed to protect themselves, just lay back and take it
4 - it's their own fault if they get attacked

apparently no one has ever taken a wrong turn, or been invited 'downtown' by friends for dinner, etc etc etc

truly dizzying - IMHO, I disagree

(yes, this isn't what you mean, but it seems to be a possible outcome that also needs to be considered)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Once...Caught a guy breakin into my truck which was in my garage. Normal people would run when when they saw a shotgun pointed at them but this guy ran straight at me. Needless to say he won't be breaking into any else's house. I do have a concealed permit but don't carry very often. I will also add that i am a retired USMC Master Gunnery Sgt with 4 tours iraq so the choice to eliminate this guy was made #1 because he simply made a bad choice & charged me (or he would still be here) #2 i had a wife & 2 small children in the house & there wasn't a chance in hell
he was getting inside that house. Oh & his family filed a wrongful death suit against me but the judged pretty much laughed them out of court.

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Once, to avoid getting robbed at a gas station.

The would be robber showed me a large folding knife, like the old school brass and wood Buck knives. Told me to hand over my cash, I told him I had none. He said; "How you gettin gas den?" I replied "Plastic". He said; "give it up" I said "No, now leave or risk getting shot". He said; "With what" and raised the knife, i went to draw and he trotted off when I did, he kept his knife.

I saw a Secret Service Agent have a similar experience at the same station a year or so later, but he took that guy to jail. I could understand the Perps confusion, the Agent was in a REAL nice suit and driving a flashy silver Mercedes.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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I was the one who voted "I wish I had."

I was in my own home. Not the 99% of places I should be smart enough to avoid. I was however dressed (so to speak) in a provocative manner. I was naked.

Meanwhile, a little background:
I grew up with guns. My dad was a champion marksman. Most of his guns were locked up in the safe, but there were always one or two that were left available for home defense. We knew where they were (they weren't left laying around for anyone who didn't know our home to find willy-nilly, BTW).

We (all five of us) were trained how to use them, and how, if there was no need, to leave them the heck alone. NONE of us ever "played with them." None of us involved the neighbor kid to show off, etc... All of us who wanted to went regularly to the range with my dad.

When I move out on my own, I did not take any guns with me. I didn't buy one. It was all I could do to afford my jumps. :D

Ok, back to the question at hand.

The reason I was naked, was because I was attacked in my own shower. So much for avoiding the supposedly dangerous situations.

At that moment, I wished I had taken (or bought) a gun. I would have used it without doubt. Although, I doubt I would have taken it into the shower with me, but it might have been handy once I fought my way out of the shower and into the bedroom.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

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and a bunch of other choices you did not offer up:
- yes, but I (or someone with me) put myself in a dumb-ass situation that was easily preventable
- No, because I am smart enough to avoid 99.9% of the situations that might need one
- I called 911 and that sufficed
- etc.

Your poll kind of makes the assumption that everyone will be in that situation at some point in their lives and that is hardly the case.



I like my local police. They were very pleasant and professional when they came out last month to take my statement and pull prints off windows a month ago after I scared someone off who was trying to break into my house at 11:30 at night.

However, the police are just plain not going to be able to help you if an intruder tries to get into your house. 911 as a solution is a non-starter.

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911 is a 'non-starter' in the situation that you describe. 911 is completely appropriate in many cases and is demonstrated as such tens of thousands of times every single day.

The poll is still biased and leaves out other scenarios, which i have described because I was in them and these things have happened to me.

You situations are valid because they happened to you. My situations are valid because they happened to me. If you want the whole picture, you have to look at all the possibilities, not just yours.

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911 is a reporting and response system, always has been. The right to defend ones self is the deterrent, always has been.

I have great respect for the LEO's out there, I work along side many most every day. Many feel they would take victims statements after a crime was attempted, rather than notify the victims family a crime was committed, if the victim actively defended themselves.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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