vortexring 0 #101 December 15, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote What's the point if prolific gun ownership is the crux of the problem? Since prolific gun ownership is not the problem, you have no point What is the problem then please? You mentioned a few things earlier, yet other developed nations suffer exactly the same problems you described, as I pointed out, but without frequent massacres. I believe the other poster proved you incorrect in regards to frequency I believe the other poster has yet to provide the evidence. Whether he does or not, it doesn't detract from the simple fact the high frequency of US massacres. You've still to address my earlier question. Please do so; I'm all ears. You start from a flawed premise. Guns are not the issue Not that you care Well, could you be so kind as to tell me what you believe is the issue then? I actually do care; don't be like that... 'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #102 December 15, 2012 Damn glad I don't live in America.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #103 December 15, 2012 Quote The UK hasn't suffered a school-shooting (as far as I'm aware) to the extent of Dunblane since personal handgun possession was banned. How many did we have before it? Dunblane was pretty much a stand alone event in British history. I don't think the ban had any impact on a recurrence. Also its easy enough to circumvent the hand gun ban while remaining in the law. Long barrels, extended stock, black powder revolvers make handgun ownership still legal. Criminals still have access to SAPs the only ones the ban has caused problems for are those who obey the law. Quote Either give up your guns and change your culture Change 'and' with 'or' and that might be a solution.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #104 December 15, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote What's the point if prolific gun ownership is the crux of the problem? Since prolific gun ownership is not the problem, you have no point What is the problem then please? You mentioned a few things earlier, yet other developed nations suffer exactly the same problems you described, as I pointed out, but without frequent massacres. I believe the other poster proved you incorrect in regards to frequency I believe the other poster has yet to provide the evidence. Whether he does or not, it doesn't detract from the simple fact the high frequency of US massacres. You've still to address my earlier question. Please do so; I'm all ears. You start from a flawed premise. Guns are not the issue Not that you care Well, could you be so kind as to tell me what you believe is the issue then? I actually do care; don't be like that...the complexities of any murder like this would boggle the mind I am sure He was very troubled kid. mom collected guns,(heard that on the news this am) he was not taking his meds, he was a loner (if reports are correct) His mom is somehow connected to the school (stories are changing so nothing is for sure yet, heck, I even heard she was killed by him at the school. Now I am hearing she was not at the school) As for the real issue? What triggered him? We will never know for sure. But we as a people do not accept not knowing very easily. So, it is guns. Somehow we need to have some kind of definitive answer. Well, that reason, at least those of us who could never do something so terrible, will EVER have the ability to understand. If you can understand this then you could, maybe, repeat this (not aimed at you) This person had mental problems. Looks like he should not have had access to guns. But how do, in the end, we know which person will snap like this? It does not, despite your assertions, happen that often but still banning guns, ammo, magazines and the like is all that can be discussed. That to me is sad. You want an answer, I understand that. But there is a good chance, no matter what actions are taken because of this, it will happen again, some place, some time, some day Banning guns to enhance a feeling of security will not stop it"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arvoitus 1 #105 December 15, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuote What makes the US so unique in regards to the frequency of these massacres? Nothing, look up my previous post in this thread. In fact I messed up the numbers for Finland as I forgot once incident. So for Finland its actually 4 / 54,22 which is about 0,0737 mass shootings per 100,000 people vs. US's 0,00868 mass shootings per 100,000 people. So per capita, Finland has almost 9 times as many mass shootings as US. Also the first modern mass killing was done by chemistry student who built a bomb from ammonium nitrate, nitromethane and gun pellets. He took the bomb to a shopping center, killed 7 and wounded 166 people. The US doesn't have exclusivity on people with mental health issues. Eh? Could you provide some evidence to your claims regarding Finland please? If indeed you're correct, then we'll add Finland along with the USA then; it doesn't mitigate the problem, does it? The bombing I was talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myyrmanni_bombing The shootings: 2007 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting 2008 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting 2009 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sello_mall_shooting 2011 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyvinkää_shooting There was one incident in 2010, which I didn't count since it wasn't technically a mass shooting. It was done buy a guy who had gotten out the from prison(Finnish life sentence is max 14 years) the previous year for killing his wife in 1995 (he also killed a bouncer in 1993 but didn't get convicted). He then shot dead 3 people in a McDonald's drive through because of some verbal argument. The gun was illegal. He was sentenced to 15 years so he'll be out in 2025 I think and will very likely kill again.Your rights end where my feelings begin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #106 December 15, 2012 QuoteQuote Time for a different track. 30 years of "ban guns" hasn't worked. This is an uncomfortable thought to many because it goes to the core of beliefs. Religious-level beliefs. Let's think of other ideas. But for the time being, since we are no good at preventing this stuff from happening let us start planning what we can do to mitigate it. What's the point if prolific gun ownership is the crux of the problem? Because it isn't the problem. When you start out blinded by reality, anything else that comes from that is pure fantasy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shredex 0 #107 December 15, 2012 QuoteSickening. I do, often, find myself wondering why we in the USA seem more prone to these kinds of incidents. Maybe they get it from their leader, who has ordered over 300 drone strikes and has killed over 160 children since he has been in office. It's not a gun problem. It's a misfit problem. Kid didn't have friends. He was the quite one that was isolated by others. It could have been prevented. But then again, we should ban airplanes because a few crashed into the twin towers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Arvoitus 1 #108 December 15, 2012 QuoteDunblane was pretty much a stand alone event in British history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre QuoteThe Hungerford massacre occurred in Hungerford, Berkshire, England, on 19 August 1987. The gunman, 27-year-old Michael Robert Ryan (b. 18 May 1960), armed with two semi-automatic rifles and a handgun, shot and killed sixteen people including his mother, and wounded fifteen others, then fatally shot himself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings QuoteThe Cumbria shootings was a killing spree that occurred on 2 June 2010 when a lone gunman, Derrick Bird, killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself in Cumbria, England.Your rights end where my feelings begin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #109 December 15, 2012 QuoteThe only thing false is your assertion bans work FALSE STATEMENT, I haven't claimed that.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #110 December 15, 2012 QuoteQuoteDunblane was pretty much a stand alone event in British history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre QuoteThe Hungerford massacre occurred in Hungerford, Berkshire, England, on 19 August 1987. The gunman, 27-year-old Michael Robert Ryan (b. 18 May 1960), armed with two semi-automatic rifles and a handgun, shot and killed sixteen people including his mother, and wounded fifteen others, then fatally shot himself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings QuoteThe Cumbria shootings was a killing spree that occurred on 2 June 2010 when a lone gunman, Derrick Bird, killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself in Cumbria, England. So crazy people with guns are dangerous. What's new about that?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #111 December 15, 2012 Apparently he also killed his mother, Nancy Lanza: Nancy Lanza legally owned a Sig Sauer and a Glock, both handguns of models commonly used by police, and a military-style Bushmaster .223 M4 carbine, according to law enforcement officials who also believe Adam Lanza used at least some of those weapons. "We're investigating the history of each and every weapon and we will know every single thing about those weapons," Vance said. Nancy Lanza was an avid gun collector who once showed him a "really nice, high-end rifle" that she had purchased, said Dan Holmes, owner of a landscaping business who recently decorated her yard with Christmas garlands and lights. "She said she would often go target shooting with her kids." Well, having a bunch of guns really kept her safe, didn't it? I recall a gun instructor telling me once that if I bought a gun it was far more likely to be used on family members, friends or self, or be stolen, than to be used to prevent a crime.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #112 December 15, 2012 "Lanza’s brother told police the gunman had a history of mental problems" Wow, a nutter with a gun. There's a surprise.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #113 December 15, 2012 QuoteQuoteThe only thing false is your assertion bans work FALSE STATEMENT, I haven't claimed that. Then stop advocating for one"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #114 December 15, 2012 More info on the shooter http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/50208495#50208495"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #115 December 15, 2012 Quote"Lanza’s brother told police the gunman had a history of mental problems" Wow, a nutter with a gun. There's a surprise. Great... Now that you have acknowledged that the problem is with the shooter and not the weapon, we can discuss why the mother did not make sure her guns were secured. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OHCHUTE 0 #116 December 15, 2012 What happened to my post? Anyway, this school and every other school in the USA should have access control at points of entry. There's just too many NUTJOBS and too many guns and you're not going to get rid to NUBJOBS and guns but you can control access to where there are sitting ducks. DO IT THE FUK NOW, before some other copy cat tries to outdo this murderer. Gov't once again has failed us. The school is government run and they failed in allowing the perp to enter the building. Fix the problem and lock the doors! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toolbox 0 #117 December 15, 2012 I thank you for pointing out the percentage of violent acts per 100,000 people between the US and other countries,and pointing out the chemistry students mass killing using a bomb. I think bombs are far scarier than any gun we have access to. A bomb is not hard to build,and there are many types. Remember the abortion clinic bombs that were made with granulated sugar and if I recall potasium perchlorate or something like that? This abortion clinic bomb was built using an old fire extinguisher or something about that size,and it was very effective. From what I've heard,almost all of the people who have carried out mass killings, had thought about and planned the attacks for weeks if not months before they carried them out. So many people only want to point out how dangerous the US is because of our gun culture,yet there are acts of terror commited all around the world using bombs(london,spain,ect,ect...) nerve gas(japan) and yes guns and knives,and cars,and trucks,and airplanes,and use your imagination. I'm surprised we do not have more acts of violence when you look at our massive over population and the problems that go with it,like poverty and starvation. The cultural diversity on our planet has also it seems, been a real cause of friction here on earth throughout history. The more people you have,the greater the chance of emotionally unstable freaks in the mix. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #118 December 15, 2012 The school had such a system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mr.B 0 #119 December 15, 2012 Quote The shootings: 2007 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting 2008 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kauhajoki_school_shooting 2009 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sello_mall_shooting 2011 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyvinkää_shooting There was one incident in 2010, which I didn't count since it wasn't technically a mass shooting. It was done buy a guy who had gotten out the from prison(Finnish life sentence is max 14 years) the previous year for killing his wife in 1995 (he also killed a bouncer in 1993 but didn't get convicted). He then shot dead 3 people in a McDonald's drive through because of some verbal argument. The gun was illegal. He was sentenced to 15 years so he'll be out in 2025 I think and will very likely kill again. Seems like Germany and Finland are spoiling Europe's statistics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Europe US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shootings_in_the_United_States#List_of_notable_U.S._school_attacks cheers, B. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
blueblur 0 #120 December 15, 2012 Quote"Lanza’s brother told police the gunman had a history of mental problems" Wow, a nutter with a gun. There's a surprise. The "nutter" didn't OWN a gun. His mother did. He took them illegally and killed her then went and did the rest. How is that the gun's fault?In every man's life he will be allotted one good woman and one good dog. That's all you get, so appreciate them while the time you have with them lasts. - RiggerLee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #121 December 15, 2012 Quote Quote "Lanza’s brother told police the gunman had a history of mental problems" Wow, a nutter with a gun. There's a surprise. The "nutter" didn't OWN a gun. His mother did. He took them illegally and killed her then went and did the rest. How is that the gun's fault? A gun is "what" for you and your buddies? A friend? A puppy? A living organism with its own will or a soul - or what??? Weird, really shudder> dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #122 December 15, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe only thing false is your assertion bans work FALSE STATEMENT, I haven't claimed that. Then stop advocating for one I'm not. Try reading what people write instead of making things up.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #123 December 15, 2012 QuoteQuote"Lanza’s brother told police the gunman had a history of mental problems" Wow, a nutter with a gun. There's a surprise. The "nutter" didn't OWN a gun. His mother did. He took them illegally and killed her then went and did the rest. How is that the gun's fault? So what? Does that magically bring the little children back to life?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #124 December 15, 2012 QuoteI thank you for pointing out the percentage of violent acts per 100,000 people between the US and other countries,and pointing out the chemistry students mass killing using a bomb. I think bombs are far scarier than any gun we have access to. A bomb is not hard to build,and there are many types. Remember the abortion clinic bombs that were made with granulated sugar and if I recall potasium perchlorate or something like that? This abortion clinic bomb was built using an old fire extinguisher or something about that size,and it was very effective. From what I've heard,almost all of the people who have carried out mass killings, had thought about and planned the attacks for weeks if not months before they carried them out. So many people only want to point out how dangerous the US is because of our gun culture,yet there are acts of terror commited all around the world using bombs(london,spain,ect,ect...) nerve gas(japan) and yes guns and knives,and cars,and trucks,and airplanes,and use your imagination. I'm surprised we do not have more acts of violence when you look at our massive over population and the problems that go with it,like poverty and starvation. The cultural diversity on our planet has also it seems, been a real cause of friction here on earth throughout history. The more people you have,the greater the chance of emotionally unstable freaks in the mix. How many people were murdered with bombs in the US last year? How many with guns?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yarpos 4 #125 December 15, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Well... Not Rhuwandan, but just this morning... ...so needless to say very strick gun laws work just fine. The key word being wounded. and scarred, and traumatized .... really the place for semantics about how deep a knife goes?regards, Steve the older I get...the better I was Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
