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lawrocket

The Subway Photographer

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I keep reading about people suggesting that the photographer who took the photos prior to the man in NY getting hit by the subway train should have tried to get him out.

I've got problems with this. First and foremost is the idea that somebody should be looked down upon for not trying to be a hero. A hero is somebody to be looked highly upon. Lenny Skutnik is an example - a regular dude who did what none of the hundreds of other people were willing to do - not even the trained professionals. Let's hold him in a lofty fashion and let us look down upon the non-heroes.

Second - how about others. do we hold the photographer to a higher standard than others who could have rescued?

Third - how many times to rescuers end up causing more problems? Frequently, a person is in trouble and someone tries to save that person, resulting in a double tragedy. Or a triple tragedy? Or more?


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A little like the story where the mother, father, and son drowned trying to save a dog in the ocean. The only survivor was the dog.

http://calcoastnews.com/2012/11/mother-father-and-son-drown-trying-to-rescue-dog/

I might be considered selfish, but it is more important to me that by children have a father than risking my life on the subway tracks with a stranger.
For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

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As someone who has been in a similar situation all I can say is this. In the moment of crisis a split second decision is not always altruistic, efficacious or efficient.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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When a subway train comes flying into the station it will definitely get your attention.. Given the distance in the pics it would have to be an immediate family member for me to jump in and give a hand. I'm not so sure I would have stood there and taken pictures tho [:/]. That was in poor taste to be sure.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

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As someone who has been in a similar situation all I can say is this. In the moment of crisis a split second decision is not always altruistic, efficacious or efficient.



I agree. It's not a matter of people thinking "I suppose I could help him but... ...nah"
My blog with the skydiving duck cartoons.

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"It's not our job to judge his actions"



I have no trouble passing judgment on him and the editors for this clusterfuck of atrocious decisions.

The story about warning the conduction with the flash is pure manure. No, the guy took the time to get a nicely composed picture of a guy about to get killed. Lovely. If he wanted to warn the conductor, there are much better methods.

Claims that we can't tell how far away he is also ring false. It's a shallow angle and no one is blocking the view - he's not far away. Could he have saved him? Without know subway speed and how long he sat to get this image, don't know. I do know that even if half the body was out of the track, he might just end up with bad injuries instead of death. You don't have to put yourself in danger, but to not even try...I hope it keeps him up at night.

In any event, he took the picture. Tacky and totally fucked up, but ok. Then he decides to sell it to a newspaper. Fucker!

And next we have the geniuses at the paper who slap a lurid headline on it and publish it on the cover. Pigfuckers! Even the lowest tabloids have some standards of decency.

In the scale of things, the non action bothers me much less than the picture taking, the picture selling, and the picture publishing. Very rarely are we ever tested with a life and death situation. Skydivers come a bit closer, but still mostly in planned situations where you voluntarily leave the plane. So it's not hard to see people not reacting when the window of opportunity is only a few seconds. You like to think that in such a situation you could be the hero, but not everyone will succeed.

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took the time to get a nicely composed picture of a guy about to get killed. Lovely. If he wanted to warn the conductor, there are much better methods.



name 2 methods that the conductor had any chance of noticing. A camera flash on burst is about as visible as a human being can make themselves. Did it have a chance in hell of working? Not for a second, but its something.

You dont even know what you think you know, to judge him. Unless you've seen the original you are ASSUMING that is his composition and not that of the newspaper. It could very easily be the best shot of a series on burst (which is what he claims) cropped for best effect. Tell me oh armchair savior, what lens was he using? Now tell me how far away he was oh wait you DON'T KNOW. Without access to the original photo you haven't the slightest clue what lens he used (critical for determining distance) or how far away he was and you never will.

Also, he is a PHOTOGRAPHER. It's his JOB to take and sell photographs. Like it or not this is/was a news worthy event. Documenting newsworthy events (no matter how tragic or gruesome) IS WHAT NEWS PHOTOGRAPHERS DO! I suppose you hold the same contempt for every war correspondent/photographer?

The only statement in your rant that is supportable are the actions of the paper.
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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

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In any event, he took the picture. Tacky and totally fucked up, but ok. Then he decides to sell it to a newspaper. Fucker!



A former colleague of mine, now retired, was testing a new camera and happened to be photographing a DC10 taking off at O'Hare in 1979, which also happened to be AA191, which crashed on takeoff killing all aboard.

He was offered a lot of $$$ for his film by the media, but said he wasn't going to profit from anyone else's misfortune, and simply handed his film over to the NTSB.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Can someone post a scan of the picture?

and...
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"It's not our job to judge his actions"



I guess not: it is his own job. And God's. He doesn't seem to be too bothered by his inaction. As for the Big Guy Upstairs...

Seems to me he's having no trouble soaking up the media attention. I bet he's going to have no qualms when he's cashing the check the paper gave him for the picture, and what other boons come from the media exposure. I don't buy the "nothing we could do" act. I DEFINITELY don't buy the "using my flash to alert the conductor" line.

In my life, the greatest regrets I carry are for the moments when I did not act. Maybe, in some moments, I didn't realize I could act. Maybe, in other moments, I chose not to act for reasons that I deemed appropriate... only to realize later that I was wrong. I have lost SO much more sleep over the things I did not do than the things I did, or tried to do and failed. I would hope that, given the situation, I would do anything I could, no matter how fruitless it may be.

I don't give handouts to every bum I pass. I don't tithe. I don't spend every free minute volunteering at soup kitchens. But when presented with someone in threat of life and limb? I hope I would be able to act, for to fail to do so would torture me for the rest of my life.

Elvisio "we shouldn't worry about judging, we should worry about being judged ourselves" Rodriguez

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I really failed to see why this caused such a big uproar... Since when does moral sensitivity come above journalism, and one cannot split hairs and say that one has to be a journalist by profession for it to be okay, while if you're not then for some reason the actions are different in consequence.

I don't see any CNN journalists dropping their cameras to go and help the wounded during bomb attacks, and one won't because why should one be obligated to risk their own life for another. That's entirely up to him...

Furthermore, the image in itself is completely tame in contrast to the images you see on the TV every day of war. What, because there aren't hundreds of other people dying around him, it makes his death different?

Some of the most awarded and praised photographs in history have been taken just prior to death, when the photographer knew full well what was happening. I really can't understand why this is different...

The photographer gets given hell for pressing a button, yet the other bystanders who never rushed in are all excused because they weren't holding a camera? The whole situation just doesn't make sense... The photographer did nothing wrong, and I'm pretty sure it's something he feels horrible about witnessing, and yet his willingness to have the image posted is not in any way a bad thing, it's a perfect display of mortality and the fact that so many people are upset about it, means that as a journalist and photographer, he has succeeded... He has made people think...

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In any event, he took the picture. Tacky and totally fucked up, but ok. Then he decides to sell it to a newspaper. Fucker!



A former colleague of mine, now retired, was testing a new camera and happened to be photographing a DC10 taking off at O'Hare in 1979, which also happened to be AA191, which crashed on takeoff killing all aboard.

He was offered a lot of $$$ for his film by the media, but said he wasn't going to profit from anyone else's misfortune, and simply handed his film over to the NTSB.



I'm with you on this. However, he claims the photo's were the property of the paper and if it was his decision he would not have published them. I would like to know if that is true.

not helping is one thing. i understand there are many factors that could cause a person to not help. But taking the time to take a picture is horrible. no decent person would do that. he is a sick attention whore that was hoping to get a good shot. like most people in journalism they are in it for the attention. i would be willing to bet he was very proud of himself untill readers started to criticize him. i dgive big odds on it.
"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

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taking the time to take a picture is horrible. no decent person would do that. he is a sick attention whore that was hoping to get a good shot. like most people in journalism they are in it for the attention. i would be willing to bet he was very proud of himself untill readers started to criticize him. i dgive big odds on it.



Ever see this photo?

http://believer0123.blogspot.com/2011/11/vulture-waits-for-child-to-die.html

The photo won a Pulitzer Prize. And the photographer killed himself a year later.


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If I work for a paper and I use their issued camera to take images of a news worthy event, and this is a news event, those images would in fact belong to the paper, it's work for hire. The news paper would own the copyrights too.

If I'm a news paper photographer by trade, who is on my way to work, on my own time, off the clock and I use my personal camera to shoot a news event, I own those images and can do as I please.

As a professional photographer, while I would have a hard time standing doing nothing and watching another die... it's like the seeing the pending crash about to happen, there is nothing to little you can do to stop the event.

I think reflex would kick in and I most likely would have shot the camera, not sure I would have been looking in the view finder or not?

How is this photo were talking about any different then those who took pics of people jumping to death out of the trade center or the pics from nam of the guy blowing a dudes head off or the burnt naked little girl running away from the napalm that was just dropped on her.... how is this different?

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=AG0&sa=X&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1056&bih=516&tbm=isch&tbnid=TGAK5UTCkn2ROM:&imgrefurl=http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/05/31/dubya-more-than-just-the-portrait/&docid=CTO2KHWMGEnT3M&imgurl=http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/jumpercomp2.jpg&w=1011&h=552&ei=Uf3BUJOVCcaw0AGA3YDQDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=364&vpy=188&dur=14&hovh=166&hovw=304&tx=193&ty=89&sig=111886936689941149502&page=1&tbnh=127&tbnw=225&start=0&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:0,i:111

http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=Bcf&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1056&bih=516&tbm=isch&tbnid=luMhWgsC-ilHkM:&imgrefurl=http://asiancorrespondent.com/83538/napalm-girl-photo-from-vietnam-war-turns-40/&docid=QF1KK0pn7TesJM&imgurl=http://asiancorrespondent.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/VietnamNapalmGirl-621x379.jpg&w=621&h=379&ei=o_3BUJuSJMW10QHxz4DQBg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=4&vpy=137&dur=1027&hovh=175&hovw=288&tx=167&ty=62&sig=111886936689941149502&page=1&tbnh=141&tbnw=237&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:84

http://www.google.com/imgres?num=10&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=hcf&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1056&bih=516&tbm=isch&tbnid=TSzL0QHS-L1-kM:&imgrefurl=http://www.thedreamlounge.net/you-will-be-shot/&docid=_Nua8zXi1J2GVM&imgurl=http://www.thedreamlounge.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/143943C5-FB39-3B93-33B1C2EDD7C954B3.jpg&w=400&h=242&ei=w_3BULC4Os200QH5z4DQAQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=376&vpy=130&dur=1321&hovh=175&hovw=289&tx=160&ty=82&sig=111886936689941149502&sqi=2&page=1&tbnh=126&tbnw=211&start=0&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0,i:90

http://www.google.com/imgres?num=10&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=hcf&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1056&bih=516&tbm=isch&tbnid=inD4D-DVnIAPKM:&imgrefurl=http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php%3F96111-Vietnam-pics-by-Horst-Faas&docid=T7khmdQk1qBtpM&imgurl=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/dailypix/militarypix/fresh/more/more/even%252520more/5859106.jpg&w=512&h=339&ei=w_3BULC4Os200QH5z4DQAQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=744&vpy=126&dur=1388&hovh=183&hovw=276&tx=165&ty=111&sig=111886936689941149502&sqi=2&page=1&tbnh=126&tbnw=193&start=0&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0,i:96
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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>how is this different?

i'm going to answer with my opinion even though i understand it might have been rhetorical. IMO, it is not very different. i do not think a decent person could watch others suffer so they could profit from it. i do not put that much importance on that job. i know ton's of people in the business, have been the head of media relations at several banks over the years(not a full time job, just a task,fyi). they do it for the attention. they are not good decent people in my experience. not people i admire and it is actually the opposite. they all want to be famous and would gladly watch someone suffer it it aids them to that fame. i know there are exceptions but that is my opinion of the vast majority and certainly this man. again, no decent person would do that.
"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

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> First and foremost is the idea that somebody should be looked down upon for
>not trying to be a hero.

Depends on the situation. If you had to jump onto the tracks in front of a train and didn't - not much to look down on there. If you were at a party and someone was being raped and you just went back to your beer - that might be something people looked down on

>Second - how about others. do we hold the photographer to a higher standard
>than others who could have rescued?

Agreed there. He was not in a better or worse position than anyone else there when it came to rescuing the guy.

>Third - how many times to rescuers end up causing more problems?

Again dependent on the situation. There are situations where you can save someone without a lot more risk to anyone else; there are some where it's not worth it.

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I don't buy the "nothing we could do" act.



I am assuming that you do not work on the railroad. In all of my years on the rails, I have seen a number of deaths. One that stands out the most was a suicide by train in Meridian,MS Back in 1991. An old man standing next to the crossing took several long steps to place himself in front of an Illinois Central locomotive that was rolling at 79mph. Splattered the back of my Sperry Rail Detector car with his blood and entrails. Not a pretty sight. Not one thing any person could do as it happened in the blink of an eye. I have tested the rails in the New York subways. There is not a snowball's chance in hell that I would jump from the platform in an attempt to save a person about to be ran down by a train. If you feel that you are Superman then, by all means, jump in front of a speeding train. I'm sure that you will be featured on the evening news as the idiot who thought he could beat a train and save a life.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

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Anyone hear the interview with him?

- He was on assignment, and his employer owns all the photos he took that day. He didn't make a penny more for taking that photo.

- He was at the far end of the platform, running toward the man, and triggered his camera flash, in hopes it would get the attention of the driver there was a problem. The photo was a side-effect of triggering the flash.

- There were other people on the platform, closer than he was, when he started running.
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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- He was at the far end of the platform, running toward the man, and triggered his camera flash, in hopes it would get the attention of the driver there was a problem. The photo was a side-effect of triggering the flash.

- There were other people on the platform, closer than he was, when he started running.



That's the story they came up with, yeah. I don't believe any of these elements.

You ever try to take an indoor picture while running? Or hell, just run with a camera+flash combo, all the while getting the subject on frame? I'd love to see the EXIF data on the shot and see if it matches up with the story.

In any event, you'd get a lot more attention from the train operator if you ran at the edge of the platform at his train, waving your hands. Flashing him with a bright light isn't going to help him notice the man on the tracks ahead.

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How is this photo were talking about any different then those who took pics of people jumping to death out of the trade center or the pics from nam of the guy blowing a dudes head off or the burnt naked little girl running away from the napalm that was just dropped on her.... how is this different?



No option of assistance in either of those circumstances. Can't rescue a person from the ground, and you can't save someone from armed men (I do have to credit the balls on taking that shot in front of the soldiers)

Both cases captured events of significance.

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There were other people on the platform



This was known. There were initial reports that "witnesses" were "traumatized." The motorman said that a number of people were waving their arms.

Yep. But the focus is on the photographer.


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There were other people on the platform



This was known. There were initial reports that "witnesses" were "traumatized." The motorman said that a number of people were waving their arms.

Yep. But the focus is on the photographer.



the focus is on the photographer not because he failed to help, most people understand that. he is the focus because he decided to take a picture. he made a concious effort to not help and then to take a photograph. if he just stared in horror i could totally understand and forgive him. the fact that he decided to grab his camera, aim and take the picture is why i choose to focus on him.

no decent person would do that.
"The point is, I'm weird, but I never felt weird."
John Frusciante

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