Liberal Tyranny

[Skyrad 0]

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if anyone asks my opinion, I tell them they are better off to learn a good trade. They will likely make more money and be much happier.

Very possibly correct, almost certainly they'll make more money unless you're studying medicine or possibly law. As for the happiness bit, well that has nothing to do with money once you've covered the basics.

Right up to the point they hit the ceiling that requires a degree for advancement. Then they get to discover the unhappiness of never being promoted again or going back to school while trying to maintain whatever career you started.

Get your degree first, you can always "learn a good trade" when you are out of college and that degree will help you get promotions the mere 'tradesmen' arent qualified for due to its lack.

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a degree for advancement.

Depends on how you measure advancement.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Very well said.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

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For an increasing number of major corporations having a degree (pretty much ANY degree) is a prerequisite for anything in management. Sure if the electrician or plumber wants to be a worker drone their entire life they don't need a degree, but if you want to stop crawling through attics and under sinks before you are 64 and get to the larger salary structures (and often the extended benefits that go with it) you aren't getting looked at ever until you have the lambskin.

You clearly haven't had to pay a tradesman recently Not everyone wants a life of trading their soul to make money for faceless shareholders. Tradesmen make a shed load of money, where theres muck theres money lad.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Gravitymaster 0]

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For an increasing number of major corporations having a degree (pretty much ANY degree) is a prerequisite for anything in management. Sure if the electrician or plumber wants to be a worker drone their entire life they don't need a degree, but if you want to stop crawling through attics and under sinks before you are 64 and get to the larger salary structures (and often the extended benefits that go with it) you aren't getting looked at ever until you have the lambskin.

Yes, but that's a very different topic - it was written that they can make good money, and you said until they wanted advancement. Now you're saying if they want advancement after abandoning their profession for a corporate life. Which is true, but getting higher salaries in a profession entered in their 40s or 50s is extremely challenging anyway. It may take a decade or two just to catch up to where they were as experienced trademen, and perhaps longer then they have left.

BTW, you have to also measure the direct and opportunity costs of going to college, esp if it's just to have a backup option later in life. 4 fewer years of experience means less money for a long time. (This is also frequently seen for people with master's degrees earning less than those with bachelor's or doctorates - the time lost outweighs the gain)

A saavy tradesman would also be able to invest the money not spent on a college education to expand their business and improve their skills. Most General Contractors I know who are in their 40's-60's don't crawl around in attics and basements any longer. They have journeymen or apprentices to do that work and concentrate more on running and expanding their business.

[Zenister 0]

You might want to look at the number of Electricians and Plumbers that ARE owned by major corporations. If you want to make money for the guys at the top dont get your degree. If you want access to the higher echelons of "success" (in quotes because that is an individual definition) the time you spend in school is easily worthwhile.

After scholarships and grants I left college with 55k in student loans. That is less than half my current yearly income and has been for over 10 years. A good education prepares you for far more than the specific field you study for, it teaches critical thinking, organization and planning skills you will be hard pressed to acquire on your own in a trade in 2-4 years.

What you gain from your education is entirely related to how well you apply yourself and there are certainly a number of idiots wandering around with advanced degrees, but I've also had to deal with "senior tradesmen" who spent hours troubleshooting symptoms because they simply didn't have the critical thinking skills to find root causes and wasted a ridiculous amount of time because they were to proud to ask for help from those who had them.

So yea.. go get a trade if immediate income is what you want and if you know what you want to do with your life, but I'm the exact opposite of Ron above. I'd tell everyone to go to college, get an education and (more importantly) exposure to a wider variety of options for the rest of your life than you will jumping into a trade at 18.

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Skyrad 0]

I disagree on a couple of points, if you are employed as a plumber or electrician by a corporation then it doesn't matter if you have a Masters degree even, you aren't going up the ranks because you are employed as a tradesman.
Secondly, University isn't for everyone, some people simply aren't academic it doesn't make them any less valuable as people just means they have different skill sets. In the UK Tony Blaire bumped up the numbers of graduates until a degree became required even for the most manual of labour. Consequently it devalues the academic worth a degree.
If everyone has a higher level education then it ceases to be higher level and is devalued to general level.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[RonD1120 58]

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I disagree on a couple of points, if you are employed as a plumber or electrician by a corporation then it doesn't matter if you have a Masters degree even, you aren't going up the ranks because you are employed as a tradesman.
Secondly, University isn't for everyone, some people simply aren't academic it doesn't make them any less valuable as people just means they have different skill sets. In the UK Tony Blaire bumped up the numbers of graduates until a degree became required even for the most manual of labour. Consequently it devalues the academic worth a degree.
If everyone has a higher level education then it ceases to be higher level and is devalued to general level.

I have a master's degree and am one of the lowest income producers in my family. The two highest are my stepson, an electrical contractor and my son-in-law, a computer programmer. Neither of those two went to college and both are at the six figure income level. My son's-in-law brother-in-law, a DVM, owns a veterinary hospital but I suspect his income has dropped into the five figures since the recession began.

I was never comfortable as a counselor working in the social service field. My colleagues were mostly the same as the radicals in this forum. As soon as they found out I was a Christian with a strong testimony they turned against me. I functioned in a hostile work environment without recourse.

As Christians we are taught to expect that reaction. With the Holy Spirit we become stronger as individuals and stronger in our faith.

The Scriptures are being fulfilled.

The way life experience is this, a college degree with put you in association with people who do not respect you. A trade will put you in association with folks with whom you share common values.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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The way life experience is this, a college degree with put you in association with people who do not respect you.

Perhaps you lost that respect due to your judgmental, angry, intolerant attitude and often-stated contempt for reason and logic? Assuming, of course, that the real-world Ron behaves like the Speaker's Corner Ron.

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A trade will put you in association with folks with whom you share common values.

Well, perhaps, as long as you can still find people whose trade is flint knapping or hunting mammoths.

BTW are you ever going to explain how you manage to reconcile "American patriotism" with your desire to censor opinions that differ from yours (as per the first post of this thread for one example)? It seems to me your postings scream contempt for the First Amendment, not to mention the ninth Commandment. Odd behavior from someone who claims to be a Patriot and a Christian, don't you think?

Don

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Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[RonD1120 58]

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A trade will put you in association with folks with whom you share common values.

Well, perhaps, as long as you can still find people whose trade is flint knapping or hunting mammoths.

BTW are you ever going to explain how you manage to reconcile "American patriotism" with your desire to censor opinions that differ from yours (as per the first post of this thread for one example)? It seems to me your postings scream contempt for the First Amendment, not to mention the ninth Commandment. Odd behavior from someone who claims to be a Patriot and a Christian, don't you think?

Don

[Gravitymaster 0]

Pretty funny considering how you come across on here. Perhaps a look in the mirror would help.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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Perhaps a look in the mirror would help. Sly[/sly]

Perhaps, if they didn't keep breaking. Funny how that happens.

I spend time here in Speaker's Corner because I like to sample the perspectives of people from a wide range of political persuasions. A pattern I've noticed is that those who people who argue from a Libertarian or liberal perspective are generally willing to explain their positions, so we can have a discussion and at least come to a better understanding. Most conservative posters, on the other hand, seem to get all butt-hurt if asked to explain the logic of their beliefs or positions. Any disagreement is treated as disrespect. It's almost as if, to the conservative mind, actually thinking things through to the point of being able to defend positions using reason and math (in the case of economic arguments) is something to be avoided in favor of authoritarianism and "gut feelings".

Perhaps to you asking someone how they can reconcile their American patriotism (and I don't doubt that Ron genuinely is patriotic) with positions that contradict fundamental aspects of American rights and freedoms is "arrogant". To me it's just interesting that people can hold such contradictory concepts in their mind and strongly believe both at the same time. How does that work? Unlike Ron, I don't wish to ban anyone's religious beliefs or other ideas, even if I disagree with them. I do reserve the right to question or argue against those ideas when I disagree with them, though. Sorry if that bothers you. Well, actually, I'm only sorry that people get upset if they are asked to explain their positions.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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I have no desire to censor anyone.

And yet you start posts that are all about censoring ideas you don't agree with.

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For me silence is generally the high road.

Or, maybe you just can't explain yourself? I was curious if there was a logical way to reconcile freedom of speech with the idea that universities should only teach things that pass a conservative "truth test", but now you have pretty convinced me there is none.

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Have a good day now, ya hear.

And you too, Ron. I don't know if you're in North Georgia or in Florida today, but it sure is a beautiful day in Georgia.

Off to work now. Hope you have time to play today even if I don't.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[RonD1120 58]

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I have no desire to censor anyone.

And yet you start posts that are all about censoring ideas you don't agree with.

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For me silence is generally the high road.

Or, maybe you just can't explain yourself? I was curious if there was a logical way to reconcile freedom of speech with the idea that universities should only teach things that pass a conservative "truth test", but now you have pretty convinced me there is none.

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Have a good day now, ya hear.

And you too, Ron. I don't know if you're in North Georgia or in Florida today, but it sure is a beautiful day in Georgia.

Off to work now. Hope you have time to play today even if I don't.

Don

You took the higher road on that one. Good job.

We are in FL now. No play scheduled but, not a lot of stress either. I hope you make it an easy day at work.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,254]

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I'm going to give you a hint. You and many others just don't get the point.

My hint to you would be that you're two blinded by the raging partisanship that you try to sell under the banner of 'unity' to know what your point looks like to anyone outside your circle.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jclalor 12]

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I have a master's degree and am one of the lowest income producers in my family.

It depends a whole lot on what the degree is in. I work with a twenty year old kid who just got his AA in respiratory therapy and is making $90,000 a year.

While college may not be the perfect fit for everyone, you're far more likely to have a much more comfortable life with a degree.

[Andy9o8 0]

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I have a master's degree and am one of the lowest income producers in my family.

It depends a whole lot on what the degree is in. ....

...and also the age of the person. Age discrimination in employment, despite some progress, remains very pervasive.

[kelpdiver 2]

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You might want to look at the number of Electricians and Plumbers that ARE owned by major corporations. If you want to make money for the guys at the top dont get your degree. If you want access to the higher echelons of "success" (in quotes because that is an individual definition) the time you spend in school is easily worthwhile.

After scholarships and grants I left college with 55k in student loans. That is less than half my current yearly income and has been for over 10 years. A good education prepares you for far more than the specific field you study for, it teaches critical thinking, organization and planning skills you will be hard pressed to acquire on your own in a trade in 2-4 years.

So are you an electrician or a plumber? Did I miss any details that would be relevant here? I left college with no debt and have been making infinitely more than that for nearly 20 years, but that doesn't mean very much in this discussion.

There are real gains to be had in college, for the people that seek them. But I know plenty of grads that still lack the ability to do an efficient RCA and repeat the same errors that caused the first failure. College has to be more than going through the motions.

[RonD1120 58]

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I have a master's degree and am one of the lowest income producers in my family.

It depends a whole lot on what the degree is in. ....

...and also the age of the person. Age discrimination in employment, despite some progress, remains very pervasive.

I always believed that was a major obstacle in my case. I was 52 YO when I returned to the social service agency arena.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.