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jclalor

Obama condemns killing of U.S. ambassador to Libya

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I'll admit I don't know much about Islam.
The media tries to tell me that they want all other religions dead.



There's no such thing as "the Islam" because just like Christianity there's many different takes on the religion. Mainly because the quran is of the same incoherent ambiguous quality as other Holy Books like the bible. As I understand it the ultimate goal of Islam seems to be a world ruled by Muslims, in which other religions ride the back-seat. Mind you that anything that isn't Abrahamic monotheism usually doesn't count as religion, but is considered to be something akin idolatry. Idolaters are in the same category of non-believers: lower than pigs and usually considered to be unworthy of life.



How dare you!

The United States finds your speech deplorable, and therefore deems you a social outcast destined to aimlessly wonder the AOL chatrooms via Netzero dialup!
Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are...

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It's the nature of the game. What will change my opinion? If it comes out that Stevens approved the released statement then I'll give that due weight. But since the policy of the Administration has seemed to be one of appeasement, then a review of world history indicates the grave danger that appeasement poses.



Stevens was not the ambassador in Cairo where the online press release was made. What does Stevens have to do with approving a press release outside of Libya?

Appease? Obama has never passed up an opportunity to grease Jihadist when ever the situation presents it self.

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" You've got the government stating to private citizens that there is certain private speech that it views as uncool. based solely on the CONTENT of the speech, not on the act of speaking. Not on the time, place or manner but what the speech SAID.



Then again, there is that whole thing about shouting "fire" in a crowded theater.



the world isn't a crowded theater.

These Islamic countries will continue to be third world shitholes so long as they continue to foster firings, beatings, and killings of people who say vaguely offensive things, or in this case, kill people who merely share the nationality of some random speaker.

People complain about the anti science, anti-intellectualism we see in some groups in the US, but it doesn't come close to the stifling environment in these regions where religious power often trumps any elected power.

Shah - yesterday was Sept 11th, so the two separate events could be coincidental to that detail. But no doubt whoever made the translated version available through that part of the world intended for it to spawn immediate reaction and got two hits.

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" You've got the government stating to private citizens that there is certain private speech that it views as uncool. based solely on the CONTENT of the speech, not on the act of speaking. Not on the time, place or manner but what the speech SAID.



Then again, there is that whole thing about shouting "fire" in a crowded theater.



the world isn't a crowded theater.



The internet effectively makes the whole world a theater.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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The internet effectively makes the whole world a theater.



Maybe, but the random killing of innocent people after seeing a youtube vid isn't a more or less involuntary reaction that's comparable to panic.



Absolutely true. But based on history, it's not unexpected either.

The video's creators knew full well that they were deliberately provoking a reaction like this.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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For Americans, I think you're better served to see how our US Ambassador was treated

>:(

I'm pissed!



this guy didn't make the video - but the assholes just take it out on anyone and everyone based on stupid and loose and insubstantial connections

and if they even had done it to the first guy only, it would still be idiotic and savage and childish

the idiocy and superstition is absolutely amazing

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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The video's creators knew full well that they were deliberately provoking a reaction like this.



the lesson is still about the culture of the attackers, not the vidiot


this ISN'T muslim, it's about extremists of any type and total inability to control one's tantrums

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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For Americans, I think you're better served to see how our US Ambassador was treated

>:(

I'm pissed!



this guy didn't make the video - but the assholes just take it out on anyone and everyone based on stupid and loose and insubstantial connections



The guy who made the movie knew full well that there are assholes who'd react violently, and that someone other than himself would be the victim. The person who pokes a hornets' nest isn't always the one who gets stung.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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The guy who made the movie knew full well that there are assholes who'd react violently, and that someone other than himself would be the victim. The person who pokes a hornets' nest isn't always the one who gets stung.



I hold the vidiot responsible for his action - making an inflammatory video

I hold the mob responsible for the violence and murder - that's their actions


I refuse to excuse the mob for their actions by laying it on the vidiot


the individuals of that mob are clearly not a part of 'humanity' as we know it

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Then again, there is that whole thing about shouting "fire" in a crowded theater.



the world isn't a crowded theater.



The internet effectively makes the whole world a theater.



People post stupid shit here all the time, occasionally get 2 weeks vacations for it. Yet you nor I have never started a violent confrontation over it. The worst case on record, and yes it sucked, was PhillyKev getting fired. So no, it's not a theater...of if it is, it's one with 6 Billion escape pods right next to our seats, removing any risk of a stampede.

The vidiot's point was that Muslims are blood thirty morons, right? And the result proves him right. BTW, if you want to put the blame on the producer, it probably should be directed at those who found this obscure video no one has ever heard of, translated it to Arabic (and who knows how accurately), and then distributed it to undereducated tools with guns and knives?

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The guy who made the movie knew full well that there are assholes who'd react violently, and that someone other than himself would be the victim. The person who pokes a hornets' nest isn't always the one who gets stung.



I hold the vidiot responsible for his action - making an inflammatory video

I hold the mob responsible for the violence and murder - that's their actions


I refuse to excuse the mob for their actions by laying it on the vidiot


the individuals of that mob are clearly not a part of 'humanity' as we know it



For what it's worth, there are reports out now that the mob was effectively a smoke screen that a terrorist group used to intentionally get the ambassador moving so they could take him out. If true, than the mobs aren't really guilty of much more than our own 'occupy wall street' types. The murders themselves maybe have come from an entirely different element.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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Stevens was not the ambassador in Cairo where the online press release was made. What does Stevens have to do with approving a press release outside of Libya?



Good point. So Stevens had nothing to do with it.

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Obama has never passed up an opportunity to grease Jihadist when ever the situation presents it self.



Yes. And I've even been vocal in my opposition to our own assassinations. Put from a policy standpoint, it was expressed a couple of years ago that to find a way to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science and math and engineering, even utilizing NASA for that purpose.

Kallend had a good point about yelling "fire." In many ways I think it helps to not stoke the fire by saying you're right to be upset.

But, that's just me.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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Did you miss the part I bolded?



No. It's why I accounted for the possibility that Stevens himself approved the release. It would change my opinion significantly.



Romney was criticizing a response to violence that came before said violence. Unless Romney believes they had a time machine, his entire suggestion that the press release was an apology in response to violence which had not yet occurred is illogical. The press release condemned the making of a movie designed to be hurtful. That's no worse than condemning Westboro Baptists.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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The guy who made the movie knew full well that there are assholes who'd react violently, and that someone other than himself would be the victim. The person who pokes a hornets' nest isn't always the one who gets stung.



Indeed. We should all keep our mouths shut so as not to upset them. Great policy. Theo Van Gogh had it coming. He knew better, right? We'll call that a suicide.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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Romney was criticizing a response to violence that came before said violence.



I believe that violence had already occurred. It's just that Stevens hadn't been killed yet when it was released.

What seems to be the problem with criticism? As if there are times and places where criticism is unwarranted? The criticism of the criticism must be similarly seen.

I agree with both sides. And I agree with neither.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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The guy who made the movie knew full well that there are assholes who'd react violently, and that someone other than himself would be the victim. The person who pokes a hornets' nest isn't always the one who gets stung.



I hold the vidiot responsible for his action - making an inflammatory video

I hold the mob responsible for the violence and murder - that's their actions


I refuse to excuse the mob for their actions by laying it on the vidiot


the individuals of that mob are clearly not a part of 'humanity' as we know it



For what it's worth, there are reports out now that the mob was effectively a smoke screen that a terrorist group used to intentionally get the ambassador moving so they could take him out. If true, than the mobs aren't really guilty of much more than our own 'occupy wall street' types. The murders themselves maybe have come from an entirely different element.

Blues,
Dave

The problem here is that a particular religious belief has reduced its followers to a state where they have only two functioning neurons/ one synapse. They are completely binary creatures of stimulus/response, on/off. They can be easily manipulated, as their response to certain stimuli is 100% predictable. That doesn't mean that we excuse their behavior, or absolve them of blame, or say we won't hold them accountable. But, it does seem that someone intended to provoke this situation, knew just how to light the fire and what the all-but-certain consequences would be, and did it anyway. Is that person totally without any responsibility for what has happened? Not in my book. I have to wonder what the motive would be. There is more than one faction in the world who don't want to see peace in the region, or the emergence of democracies that are sympathetic to Western democracies. Some who hunger for the "second coming" believe that war in the Middle East, and the destruction of Israel, is required before that can happen.

In a way the situation is akin to a situation where a woman seduces some young, insecure/immature kid, then once he's totally infatuated starts talking up how they could "be together forever" if only her husband could somehow be taken out of the picture. If the kid takes the hint and offs the husband, we hold him responsible for his actions but we don't excuse the wife on first amendment grounds. "Free speech" doesn't mean we are automatically immune from being held accountable for the predictable consequences of that speech. Blame is not a fixed quantity that gets divided by the number of participants, it's a quality that adheres to all the participants, be they the instigator or the tool.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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