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jgoose71

I'll Bite. Explain to me how you grow jobs from "The middle out."

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Republicans have famously said "I've never gotten a job from a poor person." And this is a statement that I can agree with.

Obama and Biden are claiming they are going to grow the economy "from the middle out." So here is your chance to argue your case, cause quite frankly, I don't understand how this is going fix things. Can someone explain to me the mechanisms in this course of action that will fix unemployment?

[cue close-up] Persuade me, if you dare [/cue close-up]
:)
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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Republicans have famously said "I've never gotten a job from a poor person." And this is a statement that I can agree with.

Obama and Biden are claiming they are going to grow the economy "from the middle out." So here is your chance to argue your case, cause quite frankly, I don't understand how this is going fix things.
:)



So you don't think restoring the middle class will improve anything? (That is what was meant, and you know it because it was stated explicitly).

www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/08/22/the-lost-decade-of-the-middle-class/
...

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I'll take a stab:

Most new jobs and most innovation come from small busineses. Most small businesspeople, especially at new companies, are middle class.



who get a loan to start the business from rich people



Rich folks send their money to Switzerland or the Cayman Islands.

Most loans come from banks, where the middle class deposit their money.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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How does he plan to restore the middle class? The only thing I've heard him mention is to get rid of the upper class.



Restoring tax rates on the millionaires to Clinton era levels won't destroy the upper class, any more than it was destroyed by Clinton, Reagan, Nixon and Eisenhower tax rates.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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So you don't think restoring the middle class will improve anything? (That is what was meant, and you know it because it was stated explicitly).

www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/08/22/the-lost-decade-of-the-middle-class/



You have completely twisted my question.

First, I have always believed that a robust middle class is the sign of a strong economy. So yes, restoring the middle class should be a priority.

Second, your article said nothing as to HOW you grow the middle class. It just bloviated on middle class history.

Fail, please try again.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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I have no idea what they mean but maybe they mean through middle class spending. Since if nobody is buying useless overpriced gadgets from the big companies they can't really employ anyone.



Since most of our over priced items come from China, I really don't see how that is going got help either.[:/]
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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I'll take a stab:

Most new jobs and most innovation come from small busineses. Most small businesspeople, especially at new companies, are middle class.



As kallend was so apt to point out in another thread, there is going to be tax increases for those who make $250,000 or more. I'm not sure how that is going to help small business, unless your business only has like 2 employee's who are being paid minimum wage.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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As kallend was so apt to point out in another thread, there is going to be tax increases for those who make $250,000 or more. I'm not sure how that is going got help small business, unless your business only has like 2 employee's who are being paid minimum wage.



Do you think that most start-up small businesspeople make more than $250k? And business taxes are not the same as personal income taxes.

- Dan G

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As kallend was so apt to point out in another thread, there is going to be tax increases for those who make $250,000 or more. I'm not sure how that is going got help small business, unless your business only has like 2 employee's who are being paid minimum wage.



Do you think that most start-up small businesspeople make more than $250k? And business taxes are not the same as personal income taxes.



I think a lot of the people (natural and otherwise) paying to create middle class jobs make or made much, much more.

The last four startups I worked for raised $30M, $35M, $80M, and $20M respectively. No one has offered me a salaried position in the last 18 years without first securing at least $8M from investors.

All of the guys I know who started those sorts of companies did it with a salary of $0 which they couldn't have afforded to do if punitive taxes prevented wealth creation.

I've also known more than a few business owners with much less money that created jobs, although I can only name one that didn't pay somewhere between minimum wage and $10 an hour which isn't middle class.

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As kallend was so apt to point out in another thread, there is going to be tax increases for those who make $250,000 or more. I'm not sure how that is going got help small business, unless your business only has like 2 employee's who are being paid minimum wage.



Do you think that most start-up small businesspeople make more than $250k? And business taxes are not the same as personal income taxes.



For small Business, because a lot of start-ups use personal income they can be one and the same. Also, unless your business can tap into the loopholes that are out there, your business taxes can be more than your personal tax.

A lot of small business owners I know have lived off of loans while waiting for their business to take off, and then after it does they get taxed out the wazoo. Business tax (U.S. officially highest in the world) payroll tax, income tax, and now healthcare tax. And I won't even get started on licensing fees and permits.

So yes, in the course of a year, it's easy to watch more that $250,000 pass through your fingers... And then get taxed...
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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The last four startups I worked for raised $30M, $35M, $80M, and $20M respectively.



I don't believe business capital investment is taxed as income. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

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All of the guys I know who started those sorts of companies did it with a salary of $0 which they couldn't have afforded to do if punitive taxes prevented wealth creation.



Maybe I misunderstand you, but I think $0 is less than $250k.

- Dan G

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Restoring tax rates on the millionaires to Clinton era levels won't destroy the upper class



The Clinton era saw the capital gains tax cut. Restoring it to 20% is what you are arguing? Okay. That’s not the Buffet rule.

The 1986 tax increase? Yep – a complete tax reform. Get rid of shelters and lower the rate. Worked wonders. Clinton’s 1993 tax increase? Didn’t help much. 1997 Capital Gains tax decrease? Wow! Economy took off (then crashed). And in 2003 the capital gains tax decreased. Economy took off (then crashed).

Here’s what we find when taxes decrease: (1) economy takes off; (2) tax revenues increase; (3) then economy crashes. Tax relief picks up the economy. When the economy is humming is when to increase taxes if you are a Keynesian. You don’t ride the brakes when driving uphill when trying to speed up or maintain speed. Increasing taxes now is like braking on the uphill. If you want to apply the brakes it makes more sense to do so when it looks like you are going too fast (i.e., 1999, 2006, etc.).


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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The last four startups I worked for raised $30M, $35M, $80M, and $20M respectively.



I don't believe business capital investment is taxed as income. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

Quote

All of the guys I know who started those sorts of companies did it with a salary of $0 which they couldn't have afforded to do if punitive taxes prevented wealth creation.



Maybe I misunderstand you, but I think $0 is less than $250k.



I'm still trying to understand how you start a business with $0. At some point you have to pony up some cash, either buy investors or loans or out of your own pocket. When that cash changes hands, it will get taxed.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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P.S. I'm still waiting for some one to tell me how you grow the economy from the middle out.

If the Liberals and Democrats are going to say Ryan's plan is weak on details, fill me in on your own....

PLEASE!!!!!!
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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The last four startups I worked for raised $30M, $35M, $80M, and $20M respectively.



I don't believe business capital investment is taxed as income. Maybe I'm wrong about that.



Ultimately business capital comes from income (earned or otherwise) which was previously taxed. More taxes means less business capital.

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All of the guys I know who started those sorts of companies did it with a salary of $0 which they couldn't have afforded to do if punitive taxes prevented wealth creation.



Maybe I misunderstand you, but I think $0 is less than $250k.



Ah! I left off important details.

That's preceded by a year (usually) or more (mostly among successful serial entrepreneurs but occasionally among rank-and-file employees who took two hits to make enough) of seven to eight figure income. Once you've done that well enough you can afford $0 in earned income because unearned income is covering your expenses (including children in their odyssey years, retirement which can take amassing 25X your final salary to maintain the same standard of living, insurance of all sorts).

I need to clear $4M after taxes to do that. Provided that I've made an 83b election with the Bush tax cuts in Washington State that'd take a $4.7M gross and $5.3M gross in California. Post Obama it's $5.6M. With long term gains taxed the same as ordinary income and no Bush 43 tax cut it's $8.5M which is 80% more than the low tax situation and 62% more than I'd otherwise need in Silicon Valley (where the well run opportunities likely to lead to such a scenario are much more abundant).

Assuming I retain 1/3% (3-4 rounds of venture capital to deliver a complex product and make it profitable really dilute you) following a liquidity event that takes market caps of $1.6B at the low end in California sans Obama and $2.6B at the high end. The former is reasonable - former competitors with better management made it to their liquidity events at $1.2B (acquisition) and $1.8B (IPO). The later is much less likely.

Obviously, if I weren't content living in mobile home and driving a 15 year old car the numbers would be higher (that's a literal truth, although my house is fairly nice for a 1991 56x20' double wide) and lower tax rates more essential to me.

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I'll take a stab:

Most new jobs and most innovation come from small busineses. Most small businesspeople, especially at new companies, are middle class.



who get a loan to start the business from rich people



Rich folks send their money to Switzerland or the Cayman Islands.

Most loans come from banks, where the middle class deposit their money.




Rich people send their money all over, US banks, US equities, Foreign equities, precious metals, foreign banks.

Please provide evidence that rich people put a majority of their savings overseas. I won't hold my breath because you can't.

I guess you're regularly a angel investor for US start-ups, especially ones cooked up by middle class people.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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How does he plan to restore the middle class? The only thing I've heard him mention is to get rid of the upper class.



Restoring tax rates on the millionaires to Clinton era levels won't destroy the upper class, any more than it was destroyed by Clinton, Reagan, Nixon and Eisenhower tax rates.



You forget that under the other administrations we had much less foriegn compition, protecting many. now the foriegn compitition is killing the US and we need to make the system more competitive hear.

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Do you think that most start-up small businesspeople make more than $250k? And business taxes are not the same as personal income taxes.



Most start-ups that provide people with good wage earning middle class jobs do.

The food truck, daycare, lawn business owner are all providing earnings for themselves, and maybe some lower end hourly wage positions, they aren't creating 50k+ jobs that offer benefits.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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I'll take a stab:

Most new jobs and most innovation come from small busineses. Most small businesspeople, especially at new companies, are middle class.



who get a loan to start the business from rich people


Rich folks send their money to Switzerland or the Cayman Islands.

Most loans come from banks, where the middle class deposit their money.



Rich people send their money all over, US banks, US equities, Foreign equities, precious metals, foreign banks.

Please provide evidence that rich people put a majority of their savings overseas. I won't hold my breath because you can't.

.


I was just using the current "Hero of the GOP", Mitt Romney, as an example.:P
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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I'll take a stab:

Most new jobs and most innovation come from small busineses. Most small businesspeople, especially at new companies, are middle class.



who get a loan to start the business from rich people


Rich folks send their money to Switzerland or the Cayman Islands.

Most loans come from banks, where the middle class deposit their money.



Rich people send their money all over, US banks, US equities, Foreign equities, precious metals, foreign banks.

Please provide evidence that rich people put a majority of their savings overseas. I won't hold my breath because you can't.

.


I was just using the current "Hero of the GOP", Mitt Romney, as an example.:P


Ah yes, the unsubstantiated accusations. While we are at it, lets talk about whether or not Obama is a U.S. citizen....

Meanwhile, no one has explained how you grow the economy from the middle out...:|
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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