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Military Vet Detained For Psych Evaluation Over Anti-Government Facebook Posts

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42 USC 1983.

I know that there are numerous people on this forum who bemoan the fact that under the law the nutter couldn't just be summarily swept up and confined involuntarily because he's a nutter and might hurt himself or someone else.

But what a sad case that provides a wonderful demonstration that, despite what so many people may think, nutters are humans and have rights, too. And thank GOODNESS there are organizations out there like Rutherford that will make the move of helping a human out.


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"The petition is so devoid of any factual allegations that it could not be reasonably expected to give rise to a case or controversy," the order says.

Wow. That's pretty condemning of the process. I guess that answers the question of why the article lacked factual foundation for the actions of the authorities. Pretty ugly.



It is not even a Judge who rules on this, it is my understanding it is a lawyer sitting on a medical board entitled a judge, but only on that medical board.

This is the single high profile case, it reveals that there are several thousand persons that have had the same thing happen to them and they are sitting in some psych ward with no due process rights of law.

This is the very danger I've been gripping about, if he's crazy fine, but it is no different than having reported in the news that someone is crazy and then it's game over for that person.

I've always been told that, believe nothing that you read and half of what you hear. Good advice then, good advice now.

You guys can parrot one side of the political issues vs the other but I'm not involved in that BS, look at the trade figues vs unemployment rates today and my complaint is that this government, all of it, is broken.

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>This is the very danger I've been gripping about, if he's crazy fine

Agreed.

>but it is no different than having reported in the news that someone is crazy and
>then it's game over for that person.

Very much agreed. And THAT is why reporters can't get any information. It's not that there is some big coverup - it's that the hospital is protecting him from such associations, as they should.

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>This is the very danger I've been gripping about, if he's crazy fine

Agreed.

>but it is no different than having reported in the news that someone is crazy and
>then it's game over for that person.

Very much agreed. And THAT is why reporters can't get any information. It's not that there is some big coverup - it's that the hospital is protecting him from such associations, as they should.



Did you miss this:
http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/citizen-warrior/2012/aug/23/judge-orders-brandon-raub-released-hospital/

Raub's release has been ordered.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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Very much agreed. And THAT is why reporters can't get any information. It's not that there is some big coverup - it's that the hospital is protecting him from such associations, as they should.



Big problem it's not even a breach of rights on the state level, it's federal officers doing snatch and grabs.

Quote

“The special justice is very old,” Whitehead said. “He had trouble hearing Brandon. He brought into the courtroom a personal cassette player – we tried to listen to it and you can hardly hear what’s being said. This is the so-called judge – he’s a lawyer, not a real judge – it’s like what you would see in a bad movie.”



ok, they have an old codger of a judge, rubberstamping medical evaluations as great as 30 days, no rights, you want to stand behind the medical field, I got it.

My view is the medical field should not be used to ignore rights of Americans that have been guaranteed by the founders of the country and it's being done on the state and federal level.

I am so sick of hearing post 9/11 bs. Damn fear mongers, every news story, every political interaction is a mud slinging fest.

Quote

Well, according to Whitehead, more than 20,000 people are “committed” under similar circumstances each year — in Virginia alone. “That means a lot of people are disappearing,” accused of having a so-called mental illness.



Is this untrue?

Read the story.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/marine-sent-to-psych-ward-over-facebook-posts-now-released-but-who-could-be-next/

Quote

This is from Raub’s Facebook page:

America has lost itself. We have lost who we truly are. This is the land of the free and the home of the brave. This is the land of Thomas Jefferson. This is the land of Benjamin Franklin. This is the land of Fredrick Douglas. This is the land of Smedley Butler. This is the land John F. Kennedy. This is the land of Martin Luther King. This is the land where the cowboy wins. This is the land where you can start from the bottom and get to the top. This is the land where regardless of you race and ethnicity you can suceed and build a better life for you and your family. This is the land where every race coexists peacefully. This is the land where justice wins. This is the land where liberty dwells. This is the land where freedom reigns. This is the land where we help the poor, and people help eachother. This is land where people beat racism.




The incident raises the possibility that the government may be monitoring what you say via social media. It is already compiling your tweets and this shows it could be monitoring your Facebook posts as well.

Quote

FBI spokeswoman Dee Rybiski argues federal agents did not monitor Raub’s Facebook page, but were sent “a few complaints about what were perceived as threatening posts.”



Everybody uses Facebook, I call BS on this too. Some director at a senior level in federal government / interagency looked at this and labeled this guy. That's all it took.

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>ok, they have an old codger of a judge, rubberstamping medical evaluations as
>great as 30 days

If he's not doing his job, get rid of him. If he is, then good for him.

>My view is the medical field should not be used to ignore rights of Americans

And my view is that someone who is at risk of harming themselves or others due to a mental illness should be evaluated and treated to ensure they are NOT a risk before being released. This is the current medical standard and it is a good one.

>I am so sick of hearing post 9/11 bs. Damn fear mongers, every news story

Agreed. The "government is abducting people over Facebook posts!" is absurd fearmongering. This happens daily throughout the US; people with mental problems are evaluated and (usually) released. Some aren't, generally for good reason. People do have mental problems, and often they need treatment.

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I am so sick of hearing post 9/11 bs. Damn fear mongers, every news story, every political interaction is a mud slinging fest.



We still don't really know any of what was said, and we probably never will. I will guarantee that in Virginia's mental health system, broken though it might be, any bias towards too quickly detaining people has a lot more to do with Cho than it does with 9/11.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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>ok, they have an old codger of a judge, rubberstamping medical evaluations as
>great as 30 days

If he's not doing his job, get rid of him. If he is, then good for him.

>My view is the medical field should not be used to ignore rights of Americans

And my view is that someone who is at risk of harming themselves or others due to a mental illness should be evaluated and treated to ensure they are NOT a risk before being released. This is the current medical standard and it is a good one.

>I am so sick of hearing post 9/11 bs. Damn fear mongers, every news story

Agreed. The "government is abducting people over Facebook posts!" is absurd fearmongering. This happens daily throughout the US; people with mental problems are evaluated and (usually) released. Some aren't, generally for good reason. People do have mental problems, and often they need treatment.



I am tagging on at the bottom with a related article for consideration.

"The enemy will be average citizens whose values resonate with those articulated by the tea party."

http://www.examiner.com/article/army-colonel-ignites-firestorm-with-article-on-crushing-a-tea-party-insurgency
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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[Reply]nd THAT is why reporters can't get any information



I haave read the objection documents. They held him for 8 hours before getting an order. That's an unlawful detention.

With the exception of him being released, what happened here is exactly what many on here have argued should be happening wholesale. He posted weird stuff on facebook. No threats. He's just weird. Committed no crime. Charged with no crime.

But removed from society. Whew. That was close. No telling how many he would have killed yeterday...


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I am tagging on at the bottom with a related article for consideration.

"The enemy will be average citizens whose values resonate with those articulated by the tea party."

http://www.examiner.com/article/army-colonel-ignites-firestorm-with-article-on-crushing-a-tea-party-insurgency



Another related article states Lubbock TX judge seeking additional tax revenue for more deputies in the event of BHO reelection and civil war.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/texas-judge-we-need-to-raise-taxes-to-prepare-for-civil-war-if-obama-is-re-elected/

Later posted articles call for his resignation.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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>ok, they have an old codger of a judge, rubberstamping medical evaluations as
>great as 30 days

If he's not doing his job, get rid of him. If he is, then good for him.

>My view is the medical field should not be used to ignore rights of Americans

And my view is that someone who is at risk of harming themselves or others due to a mental illness should be evaluated and treated to ensure they are NOT a risk before being released. This is the current medical standard and it is a good one.

>I am so sick of hearing post 9/11 bs. Damn fear mongers, every news story

Agreed. The "government is abducting people over Facebook posts!" is absurd fearmongering. This happens daily throughout the US; people with mental problems are evaluated and (usually) released. Some aren't, generally for good reason. People do have mental problems, and often they need treatment.



This is a singular event that we are all aware of. So the fear-mongering you've applied doesn't apply ("government is abducting people over Facebook posts!"). However what does apply is that a large number of people in this single state, Virginia are in fact caught up in this process without any due process rights and the lawyer/judge presiding over a named medical board can't even hear, he is so old.

Not only replace him, do away with the entire snatch and grab process.

The State/Federal government can't even say if a single gun or knife was found in this guys residence because it was warrantless. Or the AXE. Yet it was also a search and seizure of the mans residence and possibly his property.

They were not concerned with warrants because in Virginia this is allowed using the medical mechanism in place.

Now he is out, we'll be able to hear him talk or not.

I'd respectfully say I disagree with you and think in regards to this issue your judgement is clouded.

As you've said in a prior post, investigate the Facebook associates also if need be, that is frightening, although you doubt they even did anything wrong or made threats.

Due the Patriot Act they more than likely can and will, and have already done so, and are doing it now.

Here is the danger you are overlooking, it's been viewed as a breach of law. 92% are against it. but the danger is if the law doesn't apply to the government it doesn't apply to the citizens either. That is the danger. And the government is leading the way.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/local-news/2012/aug/24/tdmain01-facebook-posting-marine-veteran-released--ar-2151724/

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The State/Federal government can't even say if a single gun or knife was found in this guys residence because it was warrantless. Or the AXE. Yet it was also a search and seizure of the mans residence and possibly his property.




Is there any evidence that there was a search or seizure at this guys house? I may have missed it in one of the articles. I've just seen that they detained him for evaluation (and then the commitment). Maybe I overlooked it.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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And my view is that someone who is at risk of harming themselves or others due to a mental illness should be evaluated and treated to ensure they are NOT a risk before being released. This is the current medical standard and it is a good one.



Insane until proven competent???
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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Yes, Dave. Insane until proven competent. Kinda like "presumed guilty until proven innocent," only with nutters.

If you can prove you aren't a nutter you've got nothing to worry about. Ust take out the new DSM-V and prove there is no condition that you have ever suffered from.


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[Reply]nd THAT is why reporters can't get any information



I haave read the objection documents. They held him for 8 hours before getting an order. That's an unlawful detention.

With the exception of him being released, what happened here is exactly what many on here have argued should be happening wholesale. He posted weird stuff on facebook. No threats. He's just weird. Committed no crime. Charged with no crime.

But removed from society. Whew. That was close. No telling how many he would have killed yeterday...



Do you really think he was held just on the basis of the Facebook postings? I really don't know.

I do agree that if the timelines were not followed that is a huge failure and he should not have been held.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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None of us know. That's part of the problem. When presented to a Judge, he couldn't figure it out either.

"The petition is so devoid of any factual allegations that it could not be reasonably expected to give rise to a case or controversy," the order says.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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None of us know. That's part of the problem. When presented to a Judge, he couldn't figure it out either.

"The petition is so devoid of any factual allegations that it could not be reasonably expected to give rise to a case or controversy," the order says.



Yeah. Just out of curiosity I asked one of my peers in the Emergency services department what percentage of people who were brought in for evaluation she ended up releasing. She said, off the top of her head (so not scientifically valid information) that she ended up not TDO'ing about 1/3 people brought in. I asked if she ever petitioned for a TDO and was denied. She said only once in another jurisdiction (guy overdosed that night) and once in our current jurisdiction. Anyway, that is one person from one agency in VA following the same process.

I think this hearing and order was about the second hearing (confining for 30 days), not the TDO. I know a little less about that process.

Anyway, just some data as I was curious to know how much of a rubber stamp it is to hospitalize somebody when the cops bring them in.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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How many would she not TDO where the FBI, secrect service and local police were present?

What i find interesting is that in the aftermath of his release everyone is talking about the VA state statutes that were used (and abused) to detain him. Ive read the statutes and i dont have a problem with them.

Remember, the local police and the VA statutes were simply tools utilized by the FBI.

My concerns are that many people still fail to realize that all of our electronic communications are being monitored. The DHS used VERY broad strokes when stating who could possibly be a domestic terrorist. American citizens can be detained indefinately simply for "links" to terrorism and our government refuses to state what these links might be. That's scary.

This case feels like a dry run. I can with certainty state, albiet wothout factual evidence, that this week reports have circulated through various federal agencies regarding the american peoples response to this event....such are the timrs we live in.

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How many would she not TDO where the FBI, secrect service and local police were present?

What i find interesting is that in the aftermath of his release everyone is talking about the VA state statutes that were used (and abused) to detain him. Ive read the statutes and i dont have a problem with them.

Remember, the local police and the VA statutes were simply tools utilized by the FBI.

My concerns are that many people still fail to realize that all of our electronic communications are being monitored. The DHS used VERY broad strokes when stating who could possibly be a domestic terrorist. American citizens can be detained indefinately simply for "links" to terrorism and our government refuses to state what these links might be. That's scary.

This case feels like a dry run. I can with certainty state, albiet wothout factual evidence, that this week reports have circulated through various federal agencies regarding the american peoples response to this event....such are the timrs we live in.



I don't know, as it was a brief conversation in a hallway while we were both on our way somewhere else. From what I can read, which again is not everything printed and certainly not a complete story, the local police took him into custody and it isn't clear to me that the FBI and DHS had anything futher to do with it (meaning I am not sure at all that they attended any interview--typically those are done with the officers out in the waiting room and just the screener with the person).

I share a lot of your concerns about the overreaching security laws and the ability to detain for links to terrorism.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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When a health care professional makes the determination in Cali, it's an automatic hold of up to 72 hours. Under the statute, an individual may be detained when, as the result of a mental disorder, the individual is a danger to others, or to himself or herself, or is gravely disabled. Probable cause is defined as facts known to the authorized person that would lead a person of ordinary care and prudence to believe, or to entertain a strong suspicion, that the person detained is mentally disordered and is a danger to himself or herself, or others, is gravely disabled.

So there must first be probable cause. That allows a cop to take a person for pysch eval. The psych eval can lead to a 72 hour hold. If the person is still dangerous, then a petition is filed for an additional 14 days. Then a certification for up to 14 days for danger to self, up to 180 days for danger to others, or a year for grave disability.

The issue on this with section 1983 is privilege. Most states have laws that limit liability for people reporting or taking a person in for a hold.

So while I initially thought 42 USC 1983, I'm coming off of that a bit because of the legal privileges that may be associated.


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Sounds like Virginia has more procedural protections than California. Here the health care professional has to then make the case to a magistrate. That Temporary Detention Order is only 48 hours, not 72.

Then it has to go to a judge. In this case that was 30 days, but I confess I am not sure it is always that way.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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When a health care professional makes the determination in Cali, it's an automatic hold of up to 72 hours. Under the statute, an individual may be detained when, as the result of a mental disorder, the individual is a danger to others, or to himself or herself, or is gravely disabled. Probable cause is defined as facts known to the authorized person that would lead a person of ordinary care and prudence to believe, or to entertain a strong suspicion, that the person detained is mentally disordered and is a danger to himself or herself, or others, is gravely disabled.

So there must first be probable cause. That allows a cop to take a person for pysch eval. The psych eval can lead to a 72 hour hold. If the person is still dangerous, then a petition is filed for an additional 14 days. Then a certification for up to 14 days for danger to self, up to 180 days for danger to others, or a year for grave disability.

The issue on this with section 1983 is privilege. Most states have laws that limit liability for people reporting or taking a person in for a hold.

So while I initially thought 42 USC 1983, I'm coming off of that a bit because of the legal privileges that may be associated.



All of which does not pertain to Mr Raub otherwise a circuit court judge would not have released him and stated what he did.

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