shaark 0 #76 August 23, 2012 Quote"If Ecuador can't put him in an embassy car and fly him out, " Can't happen. Unpossible. _________________________________________________________________ I wonder if a practical way for Assange to leave the UK would be for Ecuador to grant him citizenship, make him a diplomat, and fly him 'home'. Wasn't done for Cardinal Mindszenty, who spent 15 years in the US embassy in Budapest, so maybe there are technical international rules preventing this. Of course, Mindszenty was Hungarian, in Hungary. Assange is not a British national, so --- UK government would probably like this situation, and Assange, to just go away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 620 #77 August 23, 2012 There are some requirements to being a recognized diplomat though aren't there? It seems the Brits are rather committed to seeing this out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shaark 0 #78 August 23, 2012 QuoteThere are some requirements to being a recognized diplomat though aren't there? It seems the Brits are rather committed to seeing this out. Don't really know. I imagine the originating country can call anyone/any citizen a diplomat. To enter a host country as a diplomat, I suppose the host country would have to recognize that status, and could refuse to do so, and refuse entry. Assange is technically in Ecuador, so leaving the embassy would be entering Britain. UK could, I suppose, say NO. Gets weird. Assange as a diplomat, though barred from the UK, gives the UK only two options:- Leave him there. Expel all from the embassy, prior to closing it, and Assange gets to go to Ecuador. Fun and games. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #79 August 23, 2012 QuoteI would say that's a very accurate view on the embassy. So how do they get him out? stick him in a car and drive to the airport? The Brits aren't going to pull over and search every consulate car they see, are they? I'm sure Venezuela would love to send a car to sneak him out, let Chavez rant on about gringos. But more likely I'd expect them to be up front and assert their rights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shaark 0 #80 August 23, 2012 Did some research on extraterritoriality. The Ecuadorian embassy is NOT a little piece of Ecuador, nor is any embassy of any country. Still not sure about accreditation by the host country. Normal scenario is to have an diplomat's accreditation revoked, declare him persona non grata, and deport him. Wonder where a fresh application for accreditation fits in? UK would certainly refuse same for Assange, but would such a ploy create a grey area? Probably not. Assange, looks like I can't help. You in deep shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billeisele 122 #81 August 23, 2012 QuoteI would say that's a very accurate view on the embassy. So how do they get him out? Why doesn't someone just pull the fire alarm, always worked in high school.Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 620 #82 August 23, 2012 ummm...to actually get him into a car, he must exit the compound. I think the Brits might keep a keen eye out for that. Their rights are right there in the compound. The one with no private driveway. You just can't declare someone a diplomat either. Nor can you sneak a human out in a "pouch". This could be dicey! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,121 #83 August 23, 2012 Quoteummm...to actually get him into a car, he must exit the compound. I think the Brits might keep a keen eye out for that. Their rights are right there in the compound. The one with no private driveway. You just can't declare someone a diplomat either. Nor can you sneak a human out in a "pouch". This could be dicey! Nor does the Embassy take up the whole building it is housed in. I believe it is only on the main floor, so extraction via helicopter is impossible as well. QuoteNor can you sneak a human out in a "pouch". Actually they could, or in a crate and the British would not be able to open or search it. However, they could leave it at the airport for a couple of days or weeks prior to shipping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 620 #84 August 23, 2012 Do more research on your ideas. Britain controls their airspace - highly unlikely to authorize a helicopter over that area. No, diplomatic pouches are not allowed to transport humans - documents only. Diplomatic agreements specifically do NOT authorize human trafficking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,121 #85 August 23, 2012 Quote Britain controls their airspace - highly unlikely to authorize a helicopter over that area. Who said anything about authorized? Quote No, diplomatic pouches are not allowed to transport humans - documents only. Diplomatic agreements specifically do NOT authorize human trafficking. Ever heard of Diplomatic Cargo? Indeed shipping people through Dimplomatic Cargo is not authorized. Hey, here is another one for you: Spying on your host country isn't authorized either, and you know what, those naval attaches are really just that.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 620 #86 August 23, 2012 Here, Article 27, Paragraph 4 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations clearly states that “the packages constituting the diplomatic bag must bear visible external marks of their character and may contain only diplomatic documents or articles intended for official use.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,121 #87 August 23, 2012 Quoteonly diplomatic documents or articles intended for official use I thought you said it was meant for documents only? You know right after the snide remark about doing more research.... From Wiki (it is further sourced, you can do your own research on the source): "The physical concept of a "diplomatic bag" is flexible and therefore can take many forms e.g., a cardboard box, briefcase, duffel bag, large suitcase, crate or even a shipping container." So conceivably (eventhough it is against the regulations) one could try and ship a person out in a crate or shipping container. As I noted above, if the British thought that was taking place, they could simply delay the shipment with its subsequent consequences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 620 #88 August 23, 2012 Any attempt to transport Assange this way would be a violation of international law, thereby giving the British authorities the right to open up the bag and arrest Assange on the spot. How about driving a diplomatic vehicle containing Assange onto a car ferry or through the tunnel exiting Britain? Authorities may open the vehicle, including the trunk, and arrest Assange at a border checkpoint, since international law does not allow the use of diplomatic vehicles to engage in human trafficking or smuggling. Yet given that Ecuador has smuggled drugs via diplomatic pouch in the past, who knows what they'll do. Would suck to suffocate in a box.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,121 #89 August 23, 2012 QuoteAny attempt to transport Assange this way would be a violation of international law, thereby giving the British authorities the right to open up the bag and arrest Assange on the spot. Right, but they would have to actually know, not just suspect. At least you have left your silly "documents only" argument behind. QuoteHow about driving a diplomatic vehicle containing Assange onto a car ferry or through the tunnel exiting Britain? Impossible, he would have to step on British soil to get to the car, at which point he would be arrested under British law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites normiss 620 #90 August 23, 2012 Depending on one's interpretation of "documents only" - pretty much depends on which side of the possession of the container one stands. I already mentioned his need to set foot on British soil to get into a car. I realize there are ways to sneak him out - but I believe any possible way they attempt can and it appears may very well be impeded by the British authorities. He should have a rather fun and enjoyable sense of a free life from hereon. More so were he to ever make it to Ecuador. You read up on their 'freedoms' lately??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Southern_Man 0 #91 August 23, 2012 Quote Impossible, he would have to step on British soil to get to the car, at which point he would be arrested under British law. He is on British soil and in Britain right now. The British are legally within their rights to go into the embassy and arrest him now, if they want to. There are strong and long-standing customs about not doing that, but they are legally able to."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,121 #92 August 23, 2012 QuoteHe is on British soil and in Britain right now. The British are legally within their rights to go into the embassy and arrest him now, if they want to. There are strong and long-standing customs about not doing that, but they are legally able to. Right, in the world of international relations, legal or illegal takes a back seat to ramifications Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,121 #93 August 23, 2012 QuoteThe British are legally within their rights to go into the embassy and arrest him now, if they want to. By the way, that part is not correct. It would be in contravention of article 31 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, to which both countries are signatories. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #94 August 23, 2012 As Skydecker said, UK law mandates that the government abide by treaties they are signatories to. If they did storm the embassy, there could be an argument that the the Equadorians would be within their treaty rights to arrest the British ambassador. This is the road to war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #95 August 23, 2012 Quote ummm...to actually get him into a car, he must exit the compound. I think the Brits might keep a keen eye out for that. Their rights are right there in the compound. The one with no private driveway. You just can't declare someone a diplomat either. Nor can you sneak a human out in a "pouch". This could be dicey! Yep, the only place Assange is going is Sweden.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #96 August 23, 2012 QuoteQuoteonly diplomatic documents or articles intended for official use I thought you said it was meant for documents only? You know right after the snide remark about doing more research.... From Wiki (it is further sourced, you can do your own research on the source): "The physical concept of a "diplomatic bag" is flexible and therefore can take many forms e.g., a cardboard box, briefcase, duffel bag, large suitcase, crate or even a shipping container." So conceivably (eventhough it is against the regulations) one could try and ship a person out in a crate or shipping container. As I noted above, if the British thought that was taking place, they could simply delay the shipment with its subsequent consequences. Or open it if its in breech and abuse of diplomatic protocol. A heartbeat detector laid on the box would put the kibosh on that plan.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #97 August 23, 2012 Quoteummm...to actually get him into a car, he must exit the compound. I think the Brits might keep a keen eye out for that. Their rights are right there in the compound. The one with no private driveway. sounds like it's time to install a driveway! (as subtle as Iran's nuclear weapons program) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #98 August 23, 2012 QuoteQuoteHe is on British soil and in Britain right now. The British are legally within their rights to go into the embassy and arrest him now, if they want to. There are strong and long-standing customs about not doing that, but they are legally able to. Right, in the world of international relations, legal or illegal takes a back seat to ramifications What do you think the ramifications would actually be?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #99 August 23, 2012 QuoteAs Skydecker said, UK law mandates that the government abide by treaties they are signatories to. If they did storm the embassy, there could be an argument that the the Equadorians would be within their treaty rights to arrest the British ambassador. This is the road to war. For a start no one (apart from ill informed press and muppets from Ecuador) has said anything about 'storming' the embassy. Secondly under UK English law we have the right to enter the premises under the diplomatic and Consular Premises Act 1987 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1987/46When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #100 August 23, 2012 Quote What do you think the ramifications would actually be? damage to British business interests in Latin America - 9 or 10 figures minimum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 4 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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normiss 620 #77 August 23, 2012 There are some requirements to being a recognized diplomat though aren't there? It seems the Brits are rather committed to seeing this out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaark 0 #78 August 23, 2012 QuoteThere are some requirements to being a recognized diplomat though aren't there? It seems the Brits are rather committed to seeing this out. Don't really know. I imagine the originating country can call anyone/any citizen a diplomat. To enter a host country as a diplomat, I suppose the host country would have to recognize that status, and could refuse to do so, and refuse entry. Assange is technically in Ecuador, so leaving the embassy would be entering Britain. UK could, I suppose, say NO. Gets weird. Assange as a diplomat, though barred from the UK, gives the UK only two options:- Leave him there. Expel all from the embassy, prior to closing it, and Assange gets to go to Ecuador. Fun and games. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #79 August 23, 2012 QuoteI would say that's a very accurate view on the embassy. So how do they get him out? stick him in a car and drive to the airport? The Brits aren't going to pull over and search every consulate car they see, are they? I'm sure Venezuela would love to send a car to sneak him out, let Chavez rant on about gringos. But more likely I'd expect them to be up front and assert their rights. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shaark 0 #80 August 23, 2012 Did some research on extraterritoriality. The Ecuadorian embassy is NOT a little piece of Ecuador, nor is any embassy of any country. Still not sure about accreditation by the host country. Normal scenario is to have an diplomat's accreditation revoked, declare him persona non grata, and deport him. Wonder where a fresh application for accreditation fits in? UK would certainly refuse same for Assange, but would such a ploy create a grey area? Probably not. Assange, looks like I can't help. You in deep shit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 122 #81 August 23, 2012 QuoteI would say that's a very accurate view on the embassy. So how do they get him out? Why doesn't someone just pull the fire alarm, always worked in high school.Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 620 #82 August 23, 2012 ummm...to actually get him into a car, he must exit the compound. I think the Brits might keep a keen eye out for that. Their rights are right there in the compound. The one with no private driveway. You just can't declare someone a diplomat either. Nor can you sneak a human out in a "pouch". This could be dicey! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,121 #83 August 23, 2012 Quoteummm...to actually get him into a car, he must exit the compound. I think the Brits might keep a keen eye out for that. Their rights are right there in the compound. The one with no private driveway. You just can't declare someone a diplomat either. Nor can you sneak a human out in a "pouch". This could be dicey! Nor does the Embassy take up the whole building it is housed in. I believe it is only on the main floor, so extraction via helicopter is impossible as well. QuoteNor can you sneak a human out in a "pouch". Actually they could, or in a crate and the British would not be able to open or search it. However, they could leave it at the airport for a couple of days or weeks prior to shipping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 620 #84 August 23, 2012 Do more research on your ideas. Britain controls their airspace - highly unlikely to authorize a helicopter over that area. No, diplomatic pouches are not allowed to transport humans - documents only. Diplomatic agreements specifically do NOT authorize human trafficking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,121 #85 August 23, 2012 Quote Britain controls their airspace - highly unlikely to authorize a helicopter over that area. Who said anything about authorized? Quote No, diplomatic pouches are not allowed to transport humans - documents only. Diplomatic agreements specifically do NOT authorize human trafficking. Ever heard of Diplomatic Cargo? Indeed shipping people through Dimplomatic Cargo is not authorized. Hey, here is another one for you: Spying on your host country isn't authorized either, and you know what, those naval attaches are really just that.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 620 #86 August 23, 2012 Here, Article 27, Paragraph 4 of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations clearly states that “the packages constituting the diplomatic bag must bear visible external marks of their character and may contain only diplomatic documents or articles intended for official use.” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,121 #87 August 23, 2012 Quoteonly diplomatic documents or articles intended for official use I thought you said it was meant for documents only? You know right after the snide remark about doing more research.... From Wiki (it is further sourced, you can do your own research on the source): "The physical concept of a "diplomatic bag" is flexible and therefore can take many forms e.g., a cardboard box, briefcase, duffel bag, large suitcase, crate or even a shipping container." So conceivably (eventhough it is against the regulations) one could try and ship a person out in a crate or shipping container. As I noted above, if the British thought that was taking place, they could simply delay the shipment with its subsequent consequences. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 620 #88 August 23, 2012 Any attempt to transport Assange this way would be a violation of international law, thereby giving the British authorities the right to open up the bag and arrest Assange on the spot. How about driving a diplomatic vehicle containing Assange onto a car ferry or through the tunnel exiting Britain? Authorities may open the vehicle, including the trunk, and arrest Assange at a border checkpoint, since international law does not allow the use of diplomatic vehicles to engage in human trafficking or smuggling. Yet given that Ecuador has smuggled drugs via diplomatic pouch in the past, who knows what they'll do. Would suck to suffocate in a box.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,121 #89 August 23, 2012 QuoteAny attempt to transport Assange this way would be a violation of international law, thereby giving the British authorities the right to open up the bag and arrest Assange on the spot. Right, but they would have to actually know, not just suspect. At least you have left your silly "documents only" argument behind. QuoteHow about driving a diplomatic vehicle containing Assange onto a car ferry or through the tunnel exiting Britain? Impossible, he would have to step on British soil to get to the car, at which point he would be arrested under British law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 620 #90 August 23, 2012 Depending on one's interpretation of "documents only" - pretty much depends on which side of the possession of the container one stands. I already mentioned his need to set foot on British soil to get into a car. I realize there are ways to sneak him out - but I believe any possible way they attempt can and it appears may very well be impeded by the British authorities. He should have a rather fun and enjoyable sense of a free life from hereon. More so were he to ever make it to Ecuador. You read up on their 'freedoms' lately??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #91 August 23, 2012 Quote Impossible, he would have to step on British soil to get to the car, at which point he would be arrested under British law. He is on British soil and in Britain right now. The British are legally within their rights to go into the embassy and arrest him now, if they want to. There are strong and long-standing customs about not doing that, but they are legally able to."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,121 #92 August 23, 2012 QuoteHe is on British soil and in Britain right now. The British are legally within their rights to go into the embassy and arrest him now, if they want to. There are strong and long-standing customs about not doing that, but they are legally able to. Right, in the world of international relations, legal or illegal takes a back seat to ramifications Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,121 #93 August 23, 2012 QuoteThe British are legally within their rights to go into the embassy and arrest him now, if they want to. By the way, that part is not correct. It would be in contravention of article 31 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, to which both countries are signatories. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #94 August 23, 2012 As Skydecker said, UK law mandates that the government abide by treaties they are signatories to. If they did storm the embassy, there could be an argument that the the Equadorians would be within their treaty rights to arrest the British ambassador. This is the road to war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #95 August 23, 2012 Quote ummm...to actually get him into a car, he must exit the compound. I think the Brits might keep a keen eye out for that. Their rights are right there in the compound. The one with no private driveway. You just can't declare someone a diplomat either. Nor can you sneak a human out in a "pouch". This could be dicey! Yep, the only place Assange is going is Sweden.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #96 August 23, 2012 QuoteQuoteonly diplomatic documents or articles intended for official use I thought you said it was meant for documents only? You know right after the snide remark about doing more research.... From Wiki (it is further sourced, you can do your own research on the source): "The physical concept of a "diplomatic bag" is flexible and therefore can take many forms e.g., a cardboard box, briefcase, duffel bag, large suitcase, crate or even a shipping container." So conceivably (eventhough it is against the regulations) one could try and ship a person out in a crate or shipping container. As I noted above, if the British thought that was taking place, they could simply delay the shipment with its subsequent consequences. Or open it if its in breech and abuse of diplomatic protocol. A heartbeat detector laid on the box would put the kibosh on that plan.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #97 August 23, 2012 Quoteummm...to actually get him into a car, he must exit the compound. I think the Brits might keep a keen eye out for that. Their rights are right there in the compound. The one with no private driveway. sounds like it's time to install a driveway! (as subtle as Iran's nuclear weapons program) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #98 August 23, 2012 QuoteQuoteHe is on British soil and in Britain right now. The British are legally within their rights to go into the embassy and arrest him now, if they want to. There are strong and long-standing customs about not doing that, but they are legally able to. Right, in the world of international relations, legal or illegal takes a back seat to ramifications What do you think the ramifications would actually be?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #99 August 23, 2012 QuoteAs Skydecker said, UK law mandates that the government abide by treaties they are signatories to. If they did storm the embassy, there could be an argument that the the Equadorians would be within their treaty rights to arrest the British ambassador. This is the road to war. For a start no one (apart from ill informed press and muppets from Ecuador) has said anything about 'storming' the embassy. Secondly under UK English law we have the right to enter the premises under the diplomatic and Consular Premises Act 1987 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1987/46When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #100 August 23, 2012 Quote What do you think the ramifications would actually be? damage to British business interests in Latin America - 9 or 10 figures minimum. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
