Minimum Wage

[SkydiveJonathan 0]

Poll after poll shows that 70 percent of the people support having the minimum wage keep up with inflation. That number includes many conservatives and Republicans. Even Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney, over the years, stood for this principle.

[jgoose71 0]

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Poll after poll shows that 70 percent of the people support having the minimum wage keep up with inflation. That number includes many conservatives and Republicans. Even Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney, over the years, stood for this principle.

According some of the more prominent business people out there, minimum wage actually hurts jobs.

Thing is, it has driven away entry level positions in a lot of businesses. Now they are called "internships" and they don't pay anything at all. So you have a choice, full pay or nothing with nothing in between.

The option of working your way to the top, some say, has been taken away.

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[jinlee 0]

The world needs ditch diggers too

[billvon 2,396]

>Poll after poll shows that 70 percent of the people support having the minimum wage
>keep up with inflation.

While I can see the desire for a high minimum wage, it also drives jobs out of the US, increases unemployment and increases inflation. Is it worth it? Hard to say. In general I think it's not.

[jcd11235 0]

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>Poll after poll shows that 70 percent of the people support having the minimum wage
>keep up with inflation.

While I can see the desire for a high minimum wage, it also drives jobs out of the US, increases unemployment and increases inflation. Is it worth it? Hard to say. In general I think it's not.

In short, the academic research suggests that even during hard economic times, raising the minimum wage doesn’t reduce employment.

Why is this the case? Studies generally find that policies that increase the compensation of low-wage workers significantly reduce turnover, boost worker effort, encourage employers to invest in training for their workers, and can increase demand for goods and services—all of which help balance out any potential negative effects. Source

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[billvon 2,396]

>In short, the academic research suggests that even during hard economic
>times, raising the minimum wage doesn’t reduce employment.

I've seen such studies. I've also seen these: (comments excerpted)

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But research published last year in the Southern Economic Journal . . . found no evidence that these state minimum wage increases reduced poverty rates. The authors, from Cornell and American universities, suggested that some wage gains were flowing to higher-income families rather than the intended beneficiaries.
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Research from economists David Neumark, Mark Schweitzer and William Wascher found a higher minimum wage results in a net increase in the proportion of families who are poor or near-poverty -- meaning that the "losers" from a minimum wage increase outnumber the "winners."
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More recently, a study I co-authored with Richard Burkhauser of Cornell University and the University of Melbourne found that minimum-wage increases in the mid-to-late 2000s had no effect on state poverty rates.
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According to an an article in the American Economic Review, 90 percent of the economists surveyed agreed that the minimum wage increases unemployment among low-skilled workers.
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A sizable majority of the studies surveyed in this monograph give a relatively consistent (although not always statistically significant) indication of negative employment effects of minimum wages. In addition, among the papers we view as providing the most credible evidence, almost all point to negative employment effects, both for the United States as well as for many other countries.
===============

[jcd11235 0]

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I've seen such studies. I've also seen these: (comments excerpted) …

We certainly can't logically conclude that an increase in the minimum wage increases unemployment. At best we can say that more research is needed.

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[billvon 2,396]

>We certainly can't logically conclude that an increase in the minimum wage increases
>unemployment.

OK. In that case we certainly can't conclude that raising it will help anyone, either. More research is needed. Thus the sensible approach is to leave it alone.

[matthewcline 0]

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>We certainly can't logically conclude that an increase in the minimum wage increases
>unemployment.

OK. In that case we certainly can't conclude that raising it will help anyone, either. More research is needed. Thus the sensible approach is to leave it alone.

Since the reality on the street for us looking for work seems to support your conclusions.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[quade 3]

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According some of the more prominent business people out there, minimum wage actually hurts jobs.

I know I personally would create well over 100 jobs if I could pay people $0.01 / hour...but that darn "minimum wage" is in the way of me doing that. Think about it! 100 jobs lost and all because of that darn minimum wage!

So, you know the statement must be true!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[matthewcline 0]

Well, all sarcasm aside. I sat with a fast food restaurant manager today. In a counter to my statement he needed more staff on per shift to counter the delay in service, that he agreed, but he had on as many as he could afford. He did say he could put more on during the rushes if he could cut them loose in the slow times. But then he wouldn't have a staff very long, since they want 20 to 40 hours a week (PT an FT of course).

He says he cuts as many cost as he can, using generic paper products instead of the logo stuff, local shopping club purchased condiments, etc.

But he did say that with the economy still being so poor, he had actual Bachelor Degree in Business Management, degree holding Managers and Assistant Managers!

Then told me I could start a as fry cook and work my way up to shift lead, till i get my degree.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[quade 3]

But the fact is, no matter how low the minimum wage is, there will always be somebody who wants to push it lower "to create jobs."

It's bullshit.

In the industry I work in, there are people willing to work for nothing and other people willing to take advantage of it. It's completely illegal, but goes on all the time. I think it's ridiculous, but the concept of the unpaid intern is entrenched.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 2,396]

>But the fact is, no matter how low the minimum wage is, there will always be
>somebody who wants to push it lower "to create jobs."

Of course. And there will always people who want to push it higher to "help the poor." Taken to extremes both are bullshit.

>In the industry I work in, there are people willing to work for nothing and other
>people willing to take advantage of it. It's completely illegal, but goes on all the time. I
>think it's ridiculous, but the concept of the unpaid intern is entrenched.

Agreed. I think companies should be allowed to pay these people, say, $5 an hour instead of being required by law to pay them either nothing or $8 an hour.

[quade 3]

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I think companies should be allowed to pay these people, say, $5 an hour instead of being required by law to pay them either nothing or $8 an hour.

Except the law -doesn't- allow them to pay them nothing. That's the fallacy they are taking advantage of, that people think these unpaid internships are legal, when in fact all they are is putting people out of work and giving the employers free labor.

The kids doing the unpaid internships think they're legal because some unpaid internships are legal under the law as long as certain provisions are met. However, in the industry I'm talking about, abuse is rampant and in no way are the unpaid internships legal at all.

But this is what I'm talking about, there will -always- be employers who try to push wages lower. In jobs that aren't as "glamorous" as bringing a cup of coffee to a "producer", they might have to actually hire some illegal worker to skirt the minimum wage, like maybe the guy who cuts the lawn, but the poor sap getting the coffee is still unpaid labor and not getting an "education" as required by law.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jcd11235 0]

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>We certainly can't logically conclude that an increase in the minimum wage increases
>unemployment.

OK. In that case we certainly can't conclude that raising it will help anyone, either. More research is needed. Thus the sensible approach is to leave it alone.

Alternately, we could do a meta-analysis of previous research. Perhaps there is reason to question the credibility of studies concluding that increasing minimum wage decreases employment.

This paper re-evaluates the empirical evidence of a minimum-wage effect on employment. Several meta-regression tests corroborate Card and Krueger’s overall finding of an insignificant employment effect (both practically and statistically) from minimum-wage raises. Recently developed tests for publication selection bias confirm its presence in this area of labour research. The research on minimum-wage effects contains the clear trace of selection for adverse employment effects.

No evidence of a genuine adverse employment effect can be found among time series estimates of minimum-wage elasticities used by Card and Krueger, but they contain a clear indication of publication selection. Recall that quasi-experimental evidence corroborates minimum wage’s insignificant employment effect (Card and Krueger, 1995b). Our analysis confirms that there never was much accumulated empirical evidence of a negative employment effect from minimum-wage regulation (Leonard, 2000). In any case, there seems to be a consensus among labour economists that if there is an adverse employment effect, it is a small one (The Economist, 2001).

Our meta-analysis of 1,474 estimated minimum-wage elasticities only confirms this view and Card and Krueger’s (1995a) results. We still find strong evidence of publication selection for significantly negative employment elasiticites, but no evidence of a meaningful adverse employment effect when selection effects are filtered from the research record. Even after accounting for structural change in this area of research, very strong evidence of publication selection for negative employment elasticities remains.

See also.

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[DrewEckhardt 0]

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>Poll after poll shows that 70 percent of the people support having the minimum wage
>keep up with inflation.

While I can see the desire for a high minimum wage, it also drives jobs out of the US, increases unemployment and increases inflation. Is it worth it? Hard to say. In general I think it's not.

It also changes the break-even point for market alternatives. My corner grocery store has no cashiers making close to minimum wage (and none above it either) because the labor market costs were higher than financing or depreciation on the machines to replace the people.

[billvon 2,396]

>Except the law -doesn't- allow them to pay them nothing.

Actually it is. The Fair Labor Standards Act calls out when it is legal and when it isn't. However, it is never legal to pay less than minimum wage. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to pay them legally, rather than have the government mandating that you can't pay them unless you pay X?

>But this is what I'm talking about, there will -always- be employers who try to push
>wages lower.

Agreed. And there will always be greedy/lazy employees who want minimum wages higher.

[jcd11235 0]

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And there will always be greedy/lazy employees who want minimum wages higher.

Wanting a livable wage does not make one greedy or lazy.

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[billvon 2,396]

>Wanting a livable wage does not make one greedy or lazy.

And wanting to pay lower salaries do not make employers evil. (Of course, there are still lazy, greedy people who want to get paid more for doing nothing, and companies who want to pay their employees next to nothing - but both are exceptions, not the rule.)

[jcd11235 0]

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>Wanting a livable wage does not make one greedy or lazy.

And wanting to pay lower salaries do not make employers evil. (Of course, there are still lazy, greedy people who want to get paid more for doing nothing, and companies who want to pay their employees next to nothing - but both are exceptions, not the rule.)

There are safeguards, albeit imperfect ones, in place to protect society from both groups. One of the safeguards that protects workers from the subset of companies who want to pay their employees next to nothing is the minimum wage. It makes good sense to adjust it for inflation.

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[tkhayes 125]

we don't have any problem with increasing the 'maximum' wage.....the top end sees their increases regularly. I have no idea why this principle cannot be applied to the bottom end.

Probably because if they did that, the top end might not be able to see their increases.....or at least to the extent they do.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ceo+pay+stil+rising%3F&rlz=1C1CHFA_enUS484US484&sugexp=chrome,mod=18&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&rlz=1C1CHFA_enUS484US484&sa=X&ei=yrMkUOHeIOLY0QG6xoGwDA&ved=0CF4QvwUoAQ&q=ceo+pay+still+rising%3F&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=d685fff75e178b89&biw=1410&bih=882

[The111 0]

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we don't have any problem with increasing the 'maximum' wage.....the top end sees their increases regularly. I have no idea why this principle cannot be applied to the bottom end.

Probably because if they did that, the top end might not be able to see their increases.....or at least to the extent they do.

https://www.google.com/search?q=ceo+pay+stil+rising%3F&rlz=1C1CHFA_enUS484US484&sugexp=chrome,mod=18&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&rlz=1C1CHFA_enUS484US484&sa=X&ei=yrMkUOHeIOLY0QG6xoGwDA&ved=0CF4QvwUoAQ&q=ceo+pay+still+rising%3F&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=d685fff75e178b89&biw=1410&bih=882

The analog of increasing a maximum is decreasing a minimum. As the max goes to infinity, the min goes to zero.

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[Lefty 0]

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And there will always be greedy/lazy employees who want minimum wages higher.

Wanting a livable wage does not make one greedy or lazy.

Why should every job come with a "livable" wage? Should every teenager get paid as if they're supporting a family on their first burger-flipping job?

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[SpeedRacer 1]

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>But the fact is, no matter how low the minimum wage is, there will always be
>somebody who wants to push it lower "to create jobs."

Of course. And there will always people who want to push it higher to "help the poor." Taken to extremes both are bullshit.

>In the industry I work in, there are people willing to work for nothing and other
>people willing to take advantage of it. It's completely illegal, but goes on all the time. I
>think it's ridiculous, but the concept of the unpaid intern is entrenched.

Agreed. I think companies should be allowed to pay these people, say, $5 an hour instead of being required by law to pay them either nothing or $8 an hour.

I agree with what you said about extremes. Right now, the minimum wage is a pathetically tiny amount of money compared to the cost of living.

And no, contrary to what some people believe, its not just teenagers who make minimum wage. There are lots of college educated people out there with years of experience in more professional fields, but right now they are forced to take on minimum wage jobs. There is a growing and huge underclass right now. Corporate profits are doing great (for now) but it isn't translating into jobs that pay a living wage.

Speed Racer
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[Lefty 0]

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There are lots of college educated people out there with years of experience in more professional fields, but right now they are forced to take on minimum wage jobs. There is a growing and huge underclass right now. Corporate profits are doing great (for now) but it isn't translating into jobs that pay a living wage.

So would you like to see a temporary increase in the minimum wage until everyone gets back to "normal"?

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin