Identifying a Winchester 94 modification

[BlindBrick 0]

I'm moving deep into the Alaskan bush and my father-in-law gave me a carbine to take with me. It's a bit of a mystery ship though. The SN and stock style identifies it has a 1901 or 1904 D.O.M. (depending on what sn source you use)but its' chambered in 44 mag. so obviously it's a conversion.

I know at one time the gun was owned by a gunsmith and I'm trying to identify whether he used a kit or did the work himself so that I can decide if the weapon is safe to use with modern loads, specifically Hornady's Lever Evolution rounds.

The only non-stock identifying marks on the weapon are ".44 MAG" unevenly stamped on the barrel and a "76" and a underscored numeral "8" stamped on a plate at the bottom of the receiver, just forward of the trigger.

I appreciate any help you guys could give me. I need to make sure that this thing is safe with modern rounds because it will be what I'm using to feed my family, and there's no way I could afford the cost of the 320 mile air evac to Fairbanks if it blows up in my face.

thanks,

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[PiLFy 0]

Why in the Hell would you take the chance? $200-$300 will buy you a modern weapon. You already did some of the math in your post.

I used to own a sporterized WW1 '06. It was issued in October, 1918. After fixing the front sight. I shot an 1 1/4" group @100yds w/it. W/the original battle sights on it, no less. I loved that rifle. No way I'd count on it in the situation you're describing, though. Buy a couple of good guns, & enough ammo to make them matter.

Why are you relocating way out there, may I ask?

[BlindBrick 0]

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Why in the Hell would you take the chance? $200-$300 will buy you a modern weapon.

Because we're using all our funds to get there and the school district we will be working for won't cut our first paychecks until late September. Setting aside the fact that the pre-winter hunting will be done by that time, there are no roads or FFL's where we are going. So I'd have to fly out to Fairbanks to buy a rifle so that automatically adds $750 to the cost of anything I'd purchase.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[loch1957 0]

Even if the weapon functions perfectly might still find a better way. A 44 mag is far from a suitable hunting round. On Texas white tail its fine if your close but on critters up there its not a very good option. You really need a rifle, nothing smaller than a 308,,,this is just my opinion.

Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.”

[winsor 185]

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I'm moving deep into the Alaskan bush and my father-in-law gave me a carbine to take with me. It's a bit of a mystery ship though. The SN and stock style identifies it has a 1901 or 1904 D.O.M. (depending on what sn source you use)but its' chambered in 44 mag. so obviously it's a conversion.

I know at one time the gun was owned by a gunsmith and I'm trying to identify whether he used a kit or did the work himself so that I can decide if the weapon is safe to use with modern loads, specifically Hornady's Lever Evolution rounds.

The only non-stock identifying marks on the weapon are ".44 MAG" unevenly stamped on the barrel and a "76" and a underscored numeral "8" stamped on a plate at the bottom of the receiver, just forward of the trigger.

I appreciate any help you guys could give me. I need to make sure that this thing is safe with modern rounds because it will be what I'm using to feed my family, and there's no way I could afford the cost of the 320 mile air evac to Fairbanks if it blows up in my face.

thanks,

-Blind

IIRC, the .30-30 runs at about 40,000 CUP, the same bracket as the .44 RM, so your in the right ballpark. The fact that there is a factory version of the .44 RM 94 Winchester, with no modification of the frame, suggests that the rifle itself will handle the load.

I have a Rossi M92 in .44 RM, and it has no problem digesting anything I can load, despite having a much less solid lockup than the 94.

As far as being safe with modern rounds, I wouldn't sweat it. SAAMI pressure maxima allow for use in early Model 29s and whatnot that are a sight less sturdy than the Winchester.

For a rifle you are using in the boonies, my concern is reliability. Being an apparent conversion, I would like to rule out any tendency to jam. You should be able to load any mix of .44 Spl. round nose, Keith-style SWC, Remington JHP or whatever else you can lay your hands on and have it digest them without a hitch.

FWIW, if you have to use it on an Alaskan Brown of any description, you will find it marginal for the task. I consider the .338 Win Mag the bare minimum if you cannot manage to stay well clear of Yogi and Boo Boo, but might consider my 1895 Marlin in .45/70 in a pinch. A .30-30 or .44 RM beats harsh words - but not by much.

Anyhow, I suggest you get very familiar with the rifle before you leave, and lay in massive amounts of ammo to stay very, very current.

Oh, and have fun with it.


BSBD,

Winsor

[skiskyrock 0]

The metallurgy should have no problem handling the cartridge, but you'll have a rifle originally built to feed a bottleneck rifle cartridge that has been modified to feed a straight walled pistol cartridge with a larger rim diameter. I'd be more worried about reliability. Maybe you could arrange a trade for a savage 10/110 bolt in 308 or 30-06.

[steve1 5]

I really admire what you are doing. I went into education thirty some years ago, with plans of teaching in Alaska. So far I never made it up there to work in a school, but I have made several trips up there to hunt, fish, and enjoy that great state.

I'd recommend a bigger gun. A 338 magnum is really popular up there. Most of them kick like a mule though. I'd take a 30/06 if you were to pick one gun. It's a light gun for big Grizzlies, but it would probably work (with heavy bullets) for even big bear. A 180 grain bullet would work fine for everything from caribou to moose.

Bush villages can be scary. Hide your guns or lock them up well, so noone can steal them. I wish you luck!

[PiLFy 0]

No offense intended. I'm sorry if things are that tight. Can you not borrow a couple hundred to get a decent '06? Personally, I wouldn't go up there w/anything less than a 308. Carry a .44 on your hip.

I saw a Kodiak Grizzly, once. He was stuffed, w/marbles for eyes. I still almost peed myself...

[jinlee 0]

The 44 mag was a factory Winchester model as I recall when Clint Eastwood Dirty Harry movies were popular.

It was/is generally classified as a brush gun in deep cover. Brambles and thicket work at the time.

Unlike a supersonic round, the 44 Mag will strike what was aimed at even if small twigs or branches were in the way of the target at somewhat close range. It's a trail gun from the days of cowboys... or the 70's, effective on a black bears or wolves but not a brown bear.

In a study I once read Bear repellant is mofe effective against an attack than a firearm.

[dropbear84 0]

Having owned a 30-06 for 2 years and hunting anything from roos, pigs and water buffalo, I'd say that that would be a bare minimum for where you're headed and what you're doing with it (feeding the family).

180 grain 30-06 winchester cxp, even when placed right will take a couple of shots to bring down a 800-1000lbs buff just because of the size and pure anger of being shot the first time!

As mentioned before reliability of your weapon may be the ultimate factor, not the usability of the modern round in your conversion, in deciding whether to keep it or perhaps get a trade on something.

Have a blast up there! One day I'll get up there to see the wilds of Alaska!

[winsor 185]

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The 44 mag was a factory Winchester model as I recall when Clint Eastwood Dirty Harry movies were popular.

It was/is generally classified as a brush gun in deep cover. Brambles and thicket work at the time.

Unlike a supersonic round, the 44 Mag will strike what was aimed at even if small twigs or branches were in the way of the target at somewhat close range.

Note: The .44 Remington Magnum is WAY supersonic. You have to load it to .44 Special ballistics to get below Mach 1, particularly out of an unvented rifle length barrel.

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It's a trail gun from the days of cowboys... or the 70's, effective on a black bears or wolves but not a brown bear.

In a study I once read Bear repellant is mofe effective against an attack than a firearm.

It depends greatly on the cartridge and shot placement. I have heard of a "golden BB" shot into the optic nerve channel with a .22LR that dropped a Kodiak, and a Black Bear skull was found with 1 1/4 oz. #4 shot HEALED in the nasal cavity, apparently from taking a full-patch 12 ga. field load point blank in the face.

The firearms I have on hand which I am confident I could use to great effect against a Brown Bear - assuming I could get off a shot before being eaten - are .45/70, .338 Winchester Magnum, .458 Winchester Magnum and .460 Weatherby Magnum - all with the right bullets. The .45/70 is a fast handling brush gun, while the others are all MOA heavy hitters.

As an aside, the .460 was used by its former owner to dispatch a wounded, charging Cape Buffalo with three rapid shots, any of which were fatal. Mbogo piled up at his feet, which tells me that, in addition to being a brilliant snap shot, he was also phenomenally lucky. It's kind of like getting line stretch in time to avoid impact - you're within the margin of error.

FWIW, I have no interest in going up against charismatic megafauna. If they're willing to leave me alone, the feeling is mutual.


BSBD,

Winsor

[Bertt 0]

The 44 mag stamp on the barrel looks after-market. Easy enough to test it. Secure it to a bench ( old tire and a couple of sandbags ), put in a hot factory load, pull trigger with a string. If that's ok, shoot a magazine full rapidly to test functioning. Good luck.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[jinlee 0]

It's been 35 years since I've held a shooters bible so I stand corrected.

Not having used a 44 Mag cartridge in a carbine. The lever action if required to fire quickly in it's day (long since past) was an excellent weapon to meet the needs of it's owner.... like rifleman Chuck Conners.

It is a good weapon effective at close quarters. The 100 yard shot is pushing it. Not ideal for that long range shot stalking at distance but against wolves in Alaska in my youth I would have been comfortable with it.

And as an aside it was marketed to be carried with the 44 Mag revolver since ammo is interchangeable between long and short guns.

In Alaska blasting a massive cloud of bear repellant is effective (so the story goes) although wind direction would be a concern there.

Wolves, if a threat to life or property can be shot at anytime. I believe in certain areas the carry of firearms are necessary against wolves for personal protection.

As to the the aftermarket question. The Winchester 94 chambered in the 44 Mag was a very popular gun back in the 70's in the Northeast in and of itself. I see no need why a rifle would be converted considering it's huge production numbers at the time. As I recall laurel bushes in damp areas was where a hunter wanted to shoot a white-tailed deer with this rifle.

The Winchester 1894 holds the record for best-selling high-powered rifle in U.S. history. Nearly every family from a rural area had one back when it was PC to be a woodsman, hunter & firearms owner.

Get this, I remember the Winchester 94 in gun racks displayed in the back window inside trucks at the local high school during school hours.

Back then guns didn't kill people, people did.

[BIGUN 1,042]

You've received some good suggestions.. good luck.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[steve1 5]

My first big game rifle was a Winchester 94 in 30/30. It was short and made a good saddle gun. I shot my first deer with one when I was 12. A couple years later I bought a bolt action in 30/06. I never looked back after that. This new rifle was a vast improvement for big game.

I'd hate to try stopping a charging brown bear with an ought six. There are much heavier, and better rifles for that. For most big game hunting in Alaska, and old 30/06 would work fine. It has a shorter barrel and moderate recoil, and less noise, when compared to the big magnums. You can buy ammo about anywhere.

Granted it would be very light, when hunting big bears, but I'd bet you could kill a big brownie easy enough if you had 220 grain bullets, and used good shot placement.

I killed a bull moose once in Montana, with my old 30/06. I was using 150 grain Nosler partition bullets. 180 grain would have penetrated better. The bull was looking at me from about 100 yards. I knelt down and hit it high in the chest. The bull went down like it had been pole-axed. The bullet may have hit the front of the spine. At any rate, after I fired, my rifle recoiled, and the bull was gone. I walked over there, and could smell this big moose. Then I looked down and saw this big black animal about the size of a small horse. They are much bigger than an elk. It was stone dead.

If you are hunting caribou, you don't need a big magnum. Again a 30/06 would work fine for that.

A buddy of mine was a bush pilot in Alaska. He did stop a charging grizzly with his 338. He used that rifle for everything. If you can shoot a big magnum well, that might be a good gun for you. I just don't shoot a big rifle as well as a smaller one.

Another friend is a fishing guide in Alaska. I asked him what gun he hunts with up there. I expected him to say a 338 or something big. I couldn't believe his reply. He said 25/06. He even hunts moose with it. That gun seems way to puny for that, but I suppose it could be done, if you load the right bullet, and have exact bullet placement.

Exact bullet placement isn't always possible when you are hunting.

Jack O'connor shot a couple of different grizzlies with a lowly 270. He's the kind of hunter who could pull it off. He said he shot through both sides of those bear. I think we can all agree that a 270 isn't big enough to hunt Griz with.

I'm a firm believer in using a big enough gun. I'd say that a 30/06 would be very marginal on big bear but would work fine on smaller species.

Loading the right bullet is critical. You want a bullet that will hold together, penetrate deeply while expanding enough to blow a big hole,,, but heavily constructed so it won't blow up on bone. There are a lot of good bullets on the market these days.

If you use that 44 magnum on charging Grizzly or Brown Bear, you might want to save the last bullet for yourself. There's lots of better guns for hunting Alaska. Just my two cents worth...

[loch1957 0]

If money alone is the main issue try a Mosin Nagant. Its a WW11 Russian rifle, the advantages are not bad. You can grab one cheap and the ammo is also cheap. Ballistics aren't drastically different than a 30.06 Only disadvantage is surplus ammo which is plentiful and far cheaper doesn't expand much. I have a M44 and its one most reliable weapons iv shot.

Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.”

[sfzombie 3]

as an aside, i must've missed the last 9 world wars, i can only recall 2...

http://kitswv.com

[theonlyski 3]

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In a study I once read Bear repellant is mofe effective against an attack than a firearm.

If searching for bear spray, I'd suggest ~10,000,000 SHU OC. Just DO NOT get it on yourself.

That shit burns.

The stuff we got trained on (and exposed to) was 5,000,000 SHU and it takes the fun out of your day, for a while (and that's with proper washing and care). 10m would likely blind you.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[PiLFy 0]

Quote

Quote

In a study I once read Bear repellant is mofe effective against an attack than a firearm.

If searching for bear spray, I'd suggest ~10,000,000 SHU OC. Just DO NOT get it on yourself.

That shit burns.

The stuff we got trained on (and exposed to) was 5,000,000 SHU and it takes the fun out of your day, for a while (and that's with proper washing and care). 10m would likely blind you.

On the bright side. 1.5 million SHUs tastes pretty good ... http://thechillifactory.com/

[jinlee 0]

ANCHORAGE, Alaska — Officials say a grizzly bear has killed a hiker at Denali National Park — the first fatal attack in the park’s history.

[steve1 5]

I'm surprised that this is the first fatal attack by a bear in that park. There are Grizzlies up the Kazoo there...