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Skyrad

How do you stop massacres by mentally unstable people using guns?

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"I believe the majority of gun owners would agree that we should do everything possible to prevent criminals and fugitives from purchasing weapons; that we should check someone's criminal record before they can check out a gun seller; that a mentally unbalanced individual should not be able to get his hands on a gun so easily," he said. "These steps shouldn't be controversial. They should be common sense." BHO 2012



Its so easy to say and yet virtually impossible to do. So to everyone but especially those in favour of some version of firearm control, what would you do to stop another mass murder like in Colorado.

http://tinyurl.com/c4kd8pf
When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

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Oh yeah; A background check would be really effective at stopping a person with no psychiatric nor criminal history.
Gotta love knee-jerk politics.
"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

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I would recommend stepping back a few decades. Quit trying to figure out how the government can fix things. It can't.

People have to re-learn responsibility for their friends, family and neighbors. People around this boy knew he shouldn't have weapons. They might have even spoken to police. The police would have told them there was little they could do. The friends and family should have disarmed him and found him some help.

But, like some on this forum, people have learned that government is the all-purpose tonic to every problem. If only we had more laws...

Government is the least efficient means of doing anything. It should be restricted to only those things that can not be done otherwise.

The free individual with a strong respect for others; a profound sense of right vs wrong, and; the willingness to act selflessly to protect others; may be the most efficient means of accomplishing most things.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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The free individual with a strong respect for others; a profound sense of right vs wrong, and; the willingness to act selflessly to protect others; may be the most efficient means of accomplishing most things.



You mean, you hold the individual responsible for his actions and expect the best out of 'everybody' (rather than just 'somebody else')? What about the 'environment'? what about society? what about some vague "program"? what about man's inhumanity to man?' what about the person's uncle? education system? and a whole host of other excuses......er...reasons? they are responsible for so much, clearly not individuals, just these undefined 'reasons' are.

what kind of wacky talk are you throwing out there? the 'free individual' is anathema to the collective.!!!!!!B|


Seriously, though, I only take exception to the statement "step back a few decades". I don't think today's people are any less capable of this practical stance than they ever were. It's just a matter of setting expectations, even today, even in the current, rather lazy, societal context of today. It would only take a few percent to tip the scales.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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People around this boy knew he shouldn't have weapons.

Just curious, why do you say this? I haven't seen anything credible reported except how people were totally taken aback by his actions.

Although it's tempting to say "someone MUST have known", there is no law against being a quiet loner, or socially awkward, and being reticent is no basis for a search warrant to check your home/computers in case you "might be up to no good".

Anyway, as you say, there is not much that the police can do with a vague complaint of "so-and-so seems depressed, and I'm worried about them". The only way to get a court-ordered evaluation or treatment for someone is to have them involuntarily committed, and to do that you have to sign an affidavit that you have good reason to believe the person is an immediate threat to themselves and others. Given the long-term, life-altering ramifications of that action, people are just not going to do it unless they are very certain that there is a real and immediate threat. Indeed, if there is a real problem our legal system is not set up to lead to psychiatric treatment, but instead to prosecution and long jail terms for even thinking about actions such as the Colorado massacre (any of them).

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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Based on today's news...sounds like a professor hurt his wittle feelings. Big bully.

Maybe we should make university testing easier to pass and succeed.



finally - so it's the professor's fault!!!

perhaps the university fostered an atmosphere where the professors felt it appropriate to verbally abuse the students

and the atmosphere was simply a response to society's mistreatment of youth in the early 1920's

of course, the mistreatment of youth in the 1920's was a direct results of the lack of jobs in the buggy whip industry


Ban Buggy Whips. We need to immediately pass a LAW to create stimulus in the 1920's for good jobs requiring low skilled labor.

We can tax Andrew Carnegie or someone of his 'ilk'.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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"I believe the majority of gun owners would agree that we should do everything possible to prevent criminals and fugitives from purchasing weapons; that we should check someone's criminal record before they can check out a gun seller; that a mentally unbalanced individual should not be able to get his hands on a gun so easily," he said. "These steps shouldn't be controversial. They should be common sense." BHO 2012



Its so easy to say and yet virtually impossible to do. So to everyone but especially those in favour of some version of firearm control, what would you do to stop another mass murder like in Colorado.

http://tinyurl.com/c4kd8pf



Actually, quite easy to do based on evidence from other countries. The fact is that we, as a whole and largely thanks to the efforts of the NRA, have chosen not to take those steps. It is a matter of choice, and we have decided the results we are currently generating are more acceptable than having more restrictive controls.

The answer is buried right there in the question - you stop mentally unbalanced people from mass shootings by passing regulations that make it difficult for them to get guns. It would not of course guarantee an end to such killings, but again; results from other places indicate a drastically reduced firearms fatality rate.

As I told my daughter when they asked about the event; there are a lot of loonies out there, and the NRA won't allow screening to purchase a firearm, so this is the way it is. Lunatics can buy guns because a lot of people who aren't lunatics, but also aren't very smart, are afraid of who might not qualify for purchase.
" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

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our laws and justice system protect people like this kid. were too lenient. In what other countries do you see massacres from unstable children/young adults like this, happening at the frequency that it does? only in america....

everyone can claim insanity nowadays, and be removed from society and taken care of for life, albeit in a horrible environment, but some people who lose it because they hate society and people so much probably want just that.

i think EXTREMELY harsh punishments for offenses like this should be in place
gravity brings me down.........

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What about the 'environment'? what about society?


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It's just a matter of setting expectations, even today, even in the current, rather lazy, societal context of today. It would only take a few percent to tip the scales.

Curious that you would mock the role of "environment", then suggest that part of the solution is to change the "environment".

It's libertarian claptrap to pretend that "free individuals" exist somehow completely independently of the context of the environment (i.e. society) in which they find themselves. Rational actors act according to the information they have available, and the set of rules, conventions, and expectations that are "collectively" called "society" is a major source of information. One of the most powerful societal influences is "status"; virtually no-one is completely impervious to being influenced by the way we are accepted and respected by our peers and family. Many problems in our society result from conflicting notions of status, or acceptance of destructive means of obtaining status. For example, to you and me (I'm pretty comfortable in assuming this), going on welfare or other means of government support would be an absolute last resort, because in the value system in which we grew up (or chose to adopt) one loses status (in the eyes of ourselves and our peers) by becoming dependent on others, and gains status by being self-supporting. In other segments of society, dependency is just accepted, and has no adverse impact on one's status with one's peers. In that case, it might be perfectly rational to take the "free money" and spend your time on other pursuits that do improve your status. Similarly, there are segments of our society that attach little status to honest employment for modest (i.e. realistic for most people) pay, but a lot of status is attached to being the toughest/meanest/most violent thug, so rational actors will choose the latter. In all these examples, the solution is somehow (and I don't know how) to change the societal conventions so that being dependent on the government, or being a thug, or going to jail, lowers status to the point where rational actors choose other courses.

Which is why I agree with your "setting expectations..." statement.

WRT the Colorado shooting, I think a problem is that even seeking mental health treatment results in such a huge potential loss of status, as well as more tangible things like 2nd amendment rights and in many fields future employment possibilities, that most people who would benefit from treatment are dissuaded from seeking it. As a society, we would be better served to regard mental health issues the same way we look at kidney disease, or cancer, as an unfortunate challenge that people need to respond to with compassion and not condemnation.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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According to FBI statistics firearms are the weapons of choice for killers. Followed by knives/sharp instruments and beatings take 3rd place. 68% used firearms, so do we ban pocket knives and blunt instruments as well?
Contrary to most peoples belief there are more than enough laws in place to deal with shootings and crimes, we don't need a new one just for firearms. I may be the biggest nut job out there but if i haven't been diagnosed i can still get an AK if i want and could if i was diagnosed even if you ban them.

Besides everyone knows its the movie studios fault for making a violent movie that effected my sanity.
Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing.”

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I figured someone would take exception to this. I have no evidence that I can show you on the internet. I have to rely on common sense here. I can look at the pictures and video of this young man and tell he is not part of the Cleaver family. I would bet big money that someone...friends, family, neighbors, the guy who sold him a gun, wherever he got explosives, etc...knew this kid wasn't quite right.

You are right. There is and will be no law implemented by the government that will effect this situation or others like it. I think you inadvertently supported my point. Laws can not fix things. People can. Search warrants are a poor substitute for people who care about you taking an interest in your life and problems. Responsibility placed on the government to keep an eye on this individual will never replace the responsibility of those who knew him.
I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

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I would recommend stepping back a few decades. Quit trying to figure out how the government can fix things. It can't.

People have to re-learn responsibility for their friends, family and neighbors. People around this boy knew he shouldn't have weapons. They might have even spoken to police. The police would have told them there was little they could do. The friends and family should have disarmed him and found him some help.

But, like some on this forum, people have learned that government is the all-purpose tonic to every problem. If only we had more laws...

Government is the least efficient means of doing anything. It should be restricted to only those things that can not be done otherwise.

The free individual with a strong respect for others; a profound sense of right vs wrong, and; the willingness to act selflessly to protect others; may be the most efficient means of accomplishing most things.



Your point is right on the money

But

Liberals want government to be responsible
Pre-kindergarden, paid for day care and the list goes on

The family is the better part of the soulution

Our culture is going the other way
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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