0
kallend

Penn State football penalties

Recommended Posts

Quote


Appropriate? Too severe? Too lenient?

IMO when a college sports team becomes the tail that wags the dog, there's something seriously amiss.



Hard to tell

There is nothing in history to compare this to

(and thet is a good thing)
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Inappropriate in my opinion. The student body is being punished for criminal actions they had nothing to do with. Sandusky should be punished (obviously), and those who knew about it and didn't do enough to stop it should face sanctions or charges of some sort, but those who didn't know about it, or weren't in a position to do anything should be the one's picking up the pieces. It's unclear to me why the NCAA should be trying to hinder that process.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Inappropriate in my opinion. The student body is being punished for criminal actions they had nothing to do with.



How is the student body being punished? Do they have a 'right' to a football team? And if that's their primary reason for attending PSU (or USC), maybe that's a problem in itself?

The NCAA hit them for lack of institutional control. Usually that means they let athletes go wild with free cars and money from boosters and agents. In this case, they let their coaches go wild. It's certainly within their jurisdiction to punish for it.

Funny, the reaction around SF seems to be that they got a hand slap. But this came from non sports fans who don't have a clue what the impact of the bowl ban, the scholarship drop, and the open transfer rule will be. The Big10 (12) also announced they won't receive their share of the conference bowl money and I can't imagine that sponsors are going to be generous and eager this season. The program is going to bleed tens of millions for a while, I expect. They may consider shutting it down if they do see a lot of players fleeing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
60 million a year. That's how much that team generated for the University. I wonder how much went to academics or other sports teams. I believe they would suffer. I agree with the penalties and I agree with the damage to the student body. But they can go somewhere else. After all, who the hell wants a Penn State degree now?
_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

They should lose the program forever.



makes no sense - the "individuals" responsible should be assessed and actions taken to ensure it never happens again. How does sanctioning a campus make any logical sense?

If an entire staff structure broke down, then replace EVERYBODY and make sure each individual goes to the appropriate trial one by one. Or it's just lazy and guilty individuals get to hide in the crowd.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

How does sanctioning a campus make any logical sense?



It would not sanction a campus... It would sanction the program that took steps to hide a pretty serious crime for a long time.

Quote

If an entire staff structure broke down, then replace EVERYBODY and make sure each individual goes to the appropriate trial one by one.



There was a criminal investigation on a band in Florida... The band was disbanded as part of the punishment. Seems there is a precedent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

How does sanctioning a campus make any logical sense?



It would not sanction a campus... It would sanction the program.



so the argument still applies - Who is this guy named "program"? is it a last name? a first name?

I find it lazy - get those individuals responsible and deal with them. Anyone else not responsible should not have to be caught up in any action.

(seriously, WHO does that mean when we say "Program"? - will it affect players and staff that were hired long after the events? etc etc etc)


If you can't find the individuals responsible and put a big star right on their foreheads and hold them, and only them, accountable, then likely you don't know, and are just doing a big PR move. "Precedent" or not, what about right vs wrong.

Take your band example.....so let's make up an example. Take a band of 4 guys. 3 attack and kill someone. The drummer was out of town. If the case involved anything other than 3 guys going to jail and a drummer just being left alone, then that's wrong. I could not give a crap whether or not they are ever allowed to play music with someone else or not - that's not the place for a court and kind of a waste of time and a really stupid message.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>makes no sense - the "individuals" responsible should be assessed and actions
>taken to ensure it never happens again. How does sanctioning a campus make
>any logical sense?

If that campus (i.e. the institution with all its rules, history, tribal knowledge etc) simply can't run a responsible program then it should lose the program. Not to "punish" them but to prevent a recurrence.

However, I don't think that has been shown to be the case.

>If an entire staff structure broke down, then replace EVERYBODY and make sure
>each individual goes to the appropriate trial one by one.

Well, you could replace every part of the above (i.e. all the students that were there, all the staff, all the rules of the organization because "they give the coaches the freedom to abuse" or whatever) but at some point it becomes pretty silly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

>Well, you could replace every part of the above (i.e. all the students that were there, all the staff, all the rules of the organization because "they give the coaches the freedom to abuse" or whatever) but at some point it becomes pretty silly.



I get your first part of the post. But this last bit is wrong.

I said find every "individual" responsible (that means that specifically did something wrong).

Who said replace all the students???? why do you even make this kind of post, Bill? Doesn't it get old?


Anyway, I don't think it's silly to hold individuals accountable for their individual actions. Do you actually mean to imply that mob mentality, or the "everybody else was doing it" type of defense is valid? Or just in the context of the false interpretation (replace all the students) that you threw out there?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

>If that campus (i.e. the institution with all its rules, history, tribal knowledge etc) simply can't run a responsible program then it should lose the program. Not to "punish" them but to prevent a recurrence.



Who is this person named "campus"?

(I get what you're saying, but, as I said, it's the wrong focus.)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

makes no sense - the "individuals" responsible should be assessed and actions taken to ensure it never happens again. How does sanctioning a campus make any logical sense?

If an entire staff structure broke down, then replace EVERYBODY and make sure each individual goes to the appropriate trial one by one. Or it's just lazy and guilty individuals get to hide in the crowd.



NCAA to college sports is the same as USPA is to us. If the University wants to still belong to the NCAA, it has rules to follow. The punishing of individuals falls to the responsibility of the University and Police. The NCAA is not the Law.
_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The student body is being punished for criminal actions they had nothing to do with.

I'm not so sure of that. Although people naturally think of the football program (or any such sport) and the University as one and the same, in reality sports are administered by an Athletic Association that is largely separate from the academic side of the University. Revenues generated by football, for example, are kept within the Athletic Association and are not shared (except for a few pittances) with the rest of the University. There is a reason why the football coach and much of the coaching staff make several times the salary of the University president. When people donate to the football program they think they are donating to the University, but they aren't; none of that money goes to hire professors, provide for new courses, etc. So, if the $60 million fine is levied against the Athletic Association, there is no reason why it should impact the availability or quality of any courses. The student body should see no impact on their education. However, Athletic Associations have a way of being separate from the University when it suits them (revenues), and being part of the University when convenient (such as dealing with expenses), so we'll have to see who really pays the fine. Student athletes will get screwed, either way, as football revenues do support other less-profitable sports within the Athletic Association, such as swimming or soccer.

Besides Sandusky's obvious primary responsibility for this situation, there is the problem that several senior people, within the Athletic Association and the University Administration, made the calculation that it would be more profitable to sweep the matter under the rug. Those people will be punished (one hopes) for their failure to take action, but these sanctions are an attempt to reset the economic incentives that tempt people to make such poor choices. If in the future people know that the risk is that they will lose the money they seek to protect, and beyond that their cash cow will be destroyed for decades if not permanently, they will be much less tempted to risk the "sweep it under the rug" approach.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I agree with the penalties and I agree with the damage to the student body. But they can go somewhere else. After all, who the hell wants a Penn State degree now?

Penn State has some of the best faculty in their field, and some excellent degree programs. If a student is interested in excellent training they will still have many reasons to go to Penn State.

Contrary to popular belief, Universities do more than just play football.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>Who is this person named "campus"?

It's not a person, it's an organization. Some organizations are incompatible with some activities. Not because any one person is evil or wrong, but because the goals of the organization make it difficult or impossible to treat people fairly/legally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

NCAA to college sports is the same as USPA is to us. If the University wants to still belong to the NCAA, it has rules to follow. The punishing of individuals falls to the responsibility of the University and Police. The NCAA is not the Law.



thanks, so NCAA is doing impotent PR and nothing more

that's ok

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

The student body is being punished for criminal actions they had nothing to do with.



The Speaker's Corner angle right here. Sounds a lot like politics, doesn't it?

Quote

those who didn't know about it, or weren't in a position to do anything should be the one's picking up the pieces.



Isn't this the way it always works? Always has and always will? Paterno is dead so he can't really face anything else. The cost is passed on to those who are not responsible for causing it. The mess is for others to clean up some time in the future.

I feel bad for the students and everyone at Penn State.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Take your band example.....so let's make up an example. Take a band of 4 guys.



My band example was a marching band at a school. They killed a kid in a hazing incident. PArt of the punishment (Since the hazing was not a one time occurrence and people covered it up) was that the band program was ended or I think 10 years.

In this case, we had an entire organization covering up felonies for many years.

There is no reason to expect football to be treated differently other than Americans love their football.

The program encouraged hiding the felonies.... Therefore the program should also be punished.

College is not about football.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

60 million a year. That's how much that team generated for the University. I wonder how much went to academics or other sports teams. I believe they would suffer. I agree with the penalties and I agree with the damage to the student body. But they can go somewhere else. After all, who the hell wants a Penn State degree now?



It's still one of the more highly regarded universities, esp on the public side.

It is one of the few superstars of the Div I world...most football teams would be thrilled to just be able to support the AD's budget for itself and the non revenue sports. Texas, Notre Dame, Penn State, USC, Miami, Florida, Bama, and a few others can make outsized gains based on a long winning tradition. I'm not sure how much of that 60 is excess to the program and to the sports program. I suspect it pays for stadiums and other facilities, rather than going back to the university budget.

And I wonder if it will ever get back to that sort of revenue stream in the future. Notre Dame would be the indicator - it has been fairly crappy since the mid 90s but still holds much of its cachet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

NCAA to college sports is the same as USPA is to us. If the University wants to still belong to the NCAA, it has rules to follow. The punishing of individuals falls to the responsibility of the University and Police. The NCAA is not the Law.



thanks, so NCAA is doing impotent PR and nothing more

that's ok



OOp. That was a bad analogy after all. I wouldn't call it impotent as the ability to play with other NCAA teams are based off of how well NCAA is pleased.
_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The good ol' boy network called the NCAA is a joke.
Punishing the current players for crimes they had nothing to do with is like beating your youngest kid for all of the bad crap the older kid did.
The NCAA is supposed to be there to monitor the programs and the student athlete to ensure a proper environment and see that recruiting and operational rules are followed.
Reggie Bush got a house and a car, so kids that were in 5th grade when that happened get punished at USC.

Fine the school, fire the AD, but let the current kids play in Bowl games. IMHO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
With the inability to attract talent for four whole years, they are essentially have to start over. Might as well have been a complete refresh. It's ability to survive like ND will be based on thier hard-core fans.
_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0