matthewcline 0 #176 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteThe point of these regs, aside from subtle taxes on the poor, is about preventing accidental shootings, particularly with minors. It does nothing to address these sort of shootings. Banning the manufacture and sale of assault weapons to consumers in the United States would. Of course History proves this wrong. The US had a ban, didn't work. Plus, any weapon can be used in an assault, it is just a knee jerk marketing ploy by those who are anti Constitution and anti Bill of Rights. All in the name of Politics exercised under the false pretense of protecting the populace. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #177 July 20, 2012 Quote Right, we need to do a FAR BETTER JOB keeping guns out of the hands of nutcases. . How? He's somebody who had nothing worse than a speeding ticket. The only ways to prevent this is to amend the Constitution. the only way to keep guns from nutter is to ban them (obviously, this guy was nuts so he shouldn't have had a gun, so a gun ban won't work). Or, we have to regularly enter people's houses to search for contraband, which is prohibited by the 4th Amendment. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #178 July 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote>Guns are not the issue, correct. Considering he had enough knowledge to rig his >apartment with explosives, it's very likely he could have just as easily rigged uo pipe >bombs and begin tossing them into the crowd. Yes, and he could have driven his tractor trailer into the theater and done the same thing. He could even have done it by flooding the theater with nitrogen and asphyxiating people. But here in the US the gun is the weapon of choice for killing sprees. Thus they are part of the issue. They are not the CAUSE of the issue, but they are a part of it. That's pretty much what I said, isn't it? Nope. You wrote "Guns are not the issue, correct." Poor memory you have. Guns are part of the issue. Poor comprehension you have. Weaseling doesn't work here. You were caught out fair and square.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChangoLanzao 0 #179 July 21, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe point of these regs, aside from subtle taxes on the poor, is about preventing accidental shootings, particularly with minors. It does nothing to address these sort of shootings. Banning the manufacture and sale of assault weapons to consumers in the United States would. Of course History proves this wrong. The US had a ban, didn't work. That's why we need to make a ban that does work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #180 July 21, 2012 QuoteQuoteThe point of these regs, aside from subtle taxes on the poor, is about preventing accidental shootings, particularly with minors. It does nothing to address these sort of shootings. Banning the manufacture and sale of assault weapons to consumers in the United States would. No it wouldn't. Not in the least. He had 1 shotgun, 1 AR-15, and at least 1 glock. So at best, 1/3 of his arsenal was a scary "assault" weapon. Furthermore, a shotgun and a semiautos are as good, if not better, for CQB against unarmed people. The only thing the AR15 would have going for it would be larger clips, which of course, means practically nothing if the guy brings more than 1 pistol and/or loaded magazines.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #181 July 21, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThe point of these regs, aside from subtle taxes on the poor, is about preventing accidental shootings, particularly with minors. It does nothing to address these sort of shootings. Banning the manufacture and sale of assault weapons to consumers in the United States would. Of course History proves this wrong. The US had a ban, didn't work. That's why we need to make a ban that does work. That is just fear talking, it will, pass with further education. Assault Weapons, the term, did not exist before the ban talk started. Bans are just to hold control of an entire populace, not for its "protection". That is just the excuse used. I am not afraid of the guns, i don"t think you should be either. It is the lack of punishment for abusing rights that you should be afraid of. Punish the criminals with actual punishment, nit a free education and three hots and a cot. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #182 July 21, 2012 I am going to make a brief cameo appearance here before disappearing once again into the night. As a former Colorado resident the events of the last month have been disturbing. First the extremely scenic NW Colorado Springs neighborhood of Mountain Shadows I once called home burns to the ground and now this mass killing in Aurora. I never lived in Aurora, but I spent many many many fond hours playing volleyball in this suburb and had friends who did call Aurora home. When the names of the victims are released I am hoping that I do not recognize any of the countless people I met while playing volleyball in the city. I suspect most of the victims will be people I do not know as it has been eight years since I last set foot in Aurora and if I am not mistaken many of the victims are young people I would not have been exposed to. But it is still a disturbing event. This event goes far beyond Gun Control and for all of the people who spent their entire day today debating Gun Control, I have to ask did you accomplish anything? What caused James Holmes, a young man who is likely to be a very intelligent person, go so far over the edge in his desire to kill and destroy as many lives as he could. Sure his choice of firearms made part of his job easier. But this guy is a smart guy and he could have chosen another tool to conduct his violence had he wanted to (remember how Timothy McVeigh killed hundreds with his bomb made of fertilizer). It's clear the anti-gun and pro-gun people will never agree with each other. But instead of entering into an endless and time wasting "I hate guns they need to be banned" or a "from my dead hands" debate, I have to wonder did James Holmes leave any sign to the people he was around that he had this desire to destroy so many lives or was he so cold, so calculated the he was able to conceal his intentions of evil from everyone. Who knows what sort of family James Holmes comes from, but more often than not, when you see evil in this world, it's not some inanimate object that we should be blaming, it's more a case of questioning what sort of family did this person/people be raised in. This is a sad day for the beautiful state of Colorado. Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #183 July 21, 2012 QuoteBut here in the US the gun is the weapon of choice for killing sprees. That's why Timothy McVeigh shot all those people in Oklahoma... The point is that unstable people who are intent on doing harm will find a way to do harm with the tools available to them at the time. Be that a gun, a bomb, a stick or some other "tool" laid forth in various "manuals."--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,394 #184 July 21, 2012 >The point is that unstable people who are intent on doing harm will find a way to do >harm with the tools available to them at the time. Agreed. And they will choose the easiest to get tool. That doesn't mean it is the fault of the tool - but it does mean that we might ask how easy it is for unstable people to get them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #185 July 21, 2012 QuoteYa know, if just once in all of these types of shootings a guy would step up and stop it the moment it started saving dozens of lives in the process...you'd have a point. Has never happened. Even the Secret Service didn't stop Hinkly. He just ran out of bullets. Carry a weapon to save yourself from getting strong armed by a punk, but you're just not going to stop a guy like this. You're not. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWoLGC-n4i4 This is where you say this doesn't count for one reason or another. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #186 July 21, 2012 Usually at this point, you have Pat Robertson tell us that the shooting was due to the rejection of God by our country. Today it was by a sitting member of Congress, Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) One of Bachmann's tea bagger buddies who was in the news this week for being a paranoid. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/louie-gohmert-aurora-shootings_n_1689099.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,381 #187 July 21, 2012 Quote http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWoLGC-n4i4 This is where you say this doesn't count for one reason or another. The guy running over his partner at the end is the best part!"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #188 July 21, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteEvil or bad exists in the world no matter what you do. It's not hard to build a homemade bomb. No guns just do that. Guns are not the problem... people are the problem and there is not much we can do about that. Things like this have happened since the dawn of time even before guns came around. So basically no discussion regarding strategies to reduce these types of occurences can be had? They are just a fact of life, nothing can be done, move along, nothing to see here. I do not think we do nothing... there are laws, punishments, etc. Also, this is a great reason why we should have the right to bear arms. I think even you have stated that you see no reason to carry a gun. Well here is your reason... nut jobs exist. (period) I choose to protect myself and my family by having a firearm on me. . How well did the CCW holders protect themselves in this event? We have been told repeatedly how CCW laws will prevent events like this. You have no idea if there was another gun holder in the theater. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,381 #189 July 21, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteEvil or bad exists in the world no matter what you do. It's not hard to build a homemade bomb. No guns just do that. Guns are not the problem... people are the problem and there is not much we can do about that. Things like this have happened since the dawn of time even before guns came around. So basically no discussion regarding strategies to reduce these types of occurences can be had? They are just a fact of life, nothing can be done, move along, nothing to see here. I do not think we do nothing... there are laws, punishments, etc. Also, this is a great reason why we should have the right to bear arms. I think even you have stated that you see no reason to carry a gun. Well here is your reason... nut jobs exist. (period) I choose to protect myself and my family by having a firearm on me. . How well did the CCW holders protect themselves in this event? We have been told repeatedly how CCW laws will prevent events like this. You have no idea if there was another gun holder in the theater. If there was, they were breaking the theater rules: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2012/07/20/Ebert-Gun-Free-Theater-Proves-Concealed-Carry-Doesnt-Work"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #190 July 21, 2012 Quotehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWoLGC-n4i4 This is where you say this doesn't count for one reason or another. It's not even remotely the same thing. Anyone attempting to say it is has deluded themselves with a highly false equivalence. We've already discussed this at length today. You might want to review some of the comments made by trained professionals.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #191 July 21, 2012 QuoteQuotehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWoLGC-n4i4 This is where you say this doesn't count for one reason or another. It's not even remotely the same thing. Anyone attempting to say it is has deluded themselves with a highly false equivalence. We've already discussed this at length today. You might want to review some of the comments made by trained professionals. No scenario will be exactly the same. BTW, you people do know that a theater is not completely dark, right? Next time you're there look around and see what you can see. Also, you can bet your ass there was not a crowd around this guy while he was squeezing off rounds. Do I know if someone armed could have done something to stop the guy, No I don't. Do any of you know for sure it wouldn't make a difference, No you don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #192 July 21, 2012 Again, have you had to perform in tear gas? Trust me. It's very hard to do a lot of things in this environment._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #193 July 21, 2012 QuoteAgain, have you had to perform in tear gas? Yes. QuoteIt's very hard to do a lot of things in this environment. That's an understatement.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #194 July 21, 2012 What does it typically take to have someone declared insane or unstable? How do we spot them in a crowd? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #195 July 21, 2012 Understatement was a result of multiple complications of working in that environment too many to list, but you hit the nail on the head. You really have to be prepared, pre-emptively, and have to have had previous training in that environment to be even marginally successful. I had to go through both tear gas and pepper spray. With pepper spray, mine and my fellow trainees never could produce the muscle finesse required to bring the bataan strikes through full strokes or even on target. Imagine an unexperienced "hero" trying to get a bead on the bad guy with a weapon that requires much more fine motor skills as a hand gun._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #196 July 21, 2012 QuoteAgain, have you had to perform in tear gas? Trust me. It's very hard to do a lot of things in this environment. I answered that but it didn't post. No I have not, But I would give it a try if put in the situation. What would you do, lay there and die? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #197 July 21, 2012 QuoteQuoteAgain, have you had to perform in tear gas? Trust me. It's very hard to do a lot of things in this environment. I answered that but it didn't post. No I have not, But I would give it a try if put in the situation. What would you do, lay there and die? Your eyes are burning and producing tears in abundance, so taking careful aim is out of the question. It also hurts to breathe, and if your perspiring at all, any exposed skin will feel like it's burning. Add the effect of being caught completely off guard, the panicking crowd, and the low light situation, and the probability of an armed movie watcher stopping the body armored gunman without causing significant collateral damage is extremely low, near zero.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #198 July 21, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteAgain, have you had to perform in tear gas? Trust me. It's very hard to do a lot of things in this environment. I answered that but it didn't post. No I have not, But I would give it a try if put in the situation. What would you do, lay there and die? Your eyes are burning and producing tears in abundance, so taking careful aim is out of the question. It also hurts to breathe, and if your perspiring at all, any exposed skin will feel like it's burning. Add the effect of being caught completely off guard, the panicking crowd, and the low light situation, and the probability of an armed movie watcher stopping the body armored gunman without causing significant collateral damage is extremely low, near zero. That's all good to know. The alternative to trying would be doing nothing and that would not be an option. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #199 July 21, 2012 QuoteI answered that but it didn't post Yeah. I saw the Bonfire thread was locked out. Quote No I have not, But I would give it a try if put in the situation. What would you do, lay there and die? I would like to believe that we all would. After all, it's the human condition to believe we can make a difference. But to say one would opt to "lay there and die" as the defensive response to inability of action doesn't work here. This is just beating one's chest and being over optimistic of a situation many have never experienced. . . You have never experienced. You would have failed. I have trained in emergency enviromments like these. Most with the knowledge of what's coming up have failed. I sure didn't do my "best". Ancedotal, yes, but very telling. Truth is, the most bad assed, war-fighting expierenced, well trained person will never trump planning, surprise and preparation. This is documented many times over in the history books and all Military syllabuses in the DOD._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nanook 1 #200 July 21, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Again, have you had to perform in tear gas? Trust me. It's very hard to do a lot of things in this environment. I answered that but it didn't post. No I have not, But I would give it a try if put in the situation. What would you do, lay there and die? Your eyes are burning and producing tears in abundance, so taking careful aim is out of the question. It also hurts to breathe, and if your perspiring at all, any exposed skin will feel like it's burning. Add the effect of being caught completely off guard, the panicking crowd, and the low light situation, and the probability of an armed movie watcher stopping the body armored gunman without causing significant collateral damage is extremely low, near zero. Now that's an understatement._____________________________ "The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites