If you're a male and you're voting for Obama

[sandi 0]

I’m not replying to anyone in particular. I just want to share my thoughts. I am a scientist and a mom of an 8-year-old girl. From what I’ve seen the stereotypes regarding math and science are still here. I agree with GeorgiaDon that targeting the young age groups is the best place to change it.

I’ll share a personal example. My daughter loves math, she scored in the 98th percentile in math on the standardized tests in school. So for her age she is exceptionally good at math. Her teacher this year gave her higher level math to do than the rest of the class in order for her to be challenged. This is all great, right. Then one day she comes home from school and says that math is for boys and she is not supposed to be good at math. I was absolutely floored. How is it that in 2012 and a little girl can come home feeling bad about herself because she is good in math? I wanted to strangle whoever said that to her.

So sure, this is just one example. But I’m sure it goes on everywhere, I just didn’t expect it this young. The stereotype is still prevalent in our society. The older generation still influences the younger ones. My daughter being told that math is for boys didn’t come from the teacher, it came from other kids who most likely were told that by their parents.

I think we need to try and change the mind set early. We need to get rid of the stereotype in elementary school so that by the time kids start middle school they know that math and science are for anyone who is interested in math and science regardless of gender.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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OK, apparently, I have to be grim and upset to get my point across (which will be ignored by some regardless of tone) rather than enjoy the usual banter and friendly discourse which I do get from you and few others.

Please don't do that. I need my daily chuckle.

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I think it still comes down to the same thing. Do you think it's a huge enough of a problem, for TODAY's kids, to force the kids or the teachers or the parents to behave in a proscribed manner, even against their inclinations? Or do we trust the parents and kids to do their job - even when we don't always agree?

Because that's exactly the end game here, do we force behavior we choose on others? - for the children.

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So, boys and girls together in the same class, but cultural stereotypes can lead boys and girls to pick up different lessons from the same set of facts.

this is also a bit silly - sit a few classes. I have. The disparity between INDIVIDUAL children gets from a lesson is a lot more varied (diverse, if you will), than the generalized gender stereotype. (i.e., the total population sigma is more significant than the subgroup mean difference.) I see a lot more difference between the groups (smart kids vs lazy kids) than I do between (males vs females).

Seems we should focus on teaching all the kids. Not obsessing over subgroup issues from the 1900's

For the most part I agree, and I (like you I assume) would strongly object to government imposed mandates to create new stereotypes to "correct" the old ones. Obviously things are changing (overall for the better I think) in the sense that girls are now taking on, and succeeding at, careers that were "off limits" just a couple of generations ago. Change is slower in math/physics/engineering, but I think eventually it's inevitable. The question here is, is there something about how these subjects are approached, in the very early grades (long before high school) that unintentionally perpetuates the idea that girls and math don't mix? There is a big difference between creating new systems to "force" girls to like math, and removing existing unintentional barriers that tend to convey the message that girls don't (or shouldn't) do well at math. That doesn't require federal action, but it does require some introspection on the part of educators, and perhaps policies on the part of local school boards to put the most qualified teachers in the classroom. When my kids were in school, my wife and I made sure to find out about the teachers they were assigned to, and stir up shit when necessary to get them into the better classrooms (or at least out of the clutches of the known bad teachers). I'd (in an ideal world) like to see a day when there are no really bad teachers to avoid, the kind who can leave your child with a long-term handicap like a bias against math.

As far as the parent vs school values thing, I have mixed feelings to tell you the truth. For the most part, schools are probably best advised to avoid topics that don't relate to education. But, schools are a microcosm of society, and students need to be able to work (sometimes together) in the same class. The schools have no obligation to support blatantly racist or sexist values, even if some parents may subscribe to those views. Parents may seek to limit their daughters to home ec/nursing, but schools should never alter their curriculum to reinforce that perspective. Just as schools should not gut their biology curriculum by removing the core ideas of biology because they offend the religious sensibilities of some parents.

Cheers,
Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rehmwa 2]

You have a great, single, example.

But what is your action? Do you own it and talk to your child about it? or do you want the government to change how the other parents do their parenting? ...or both?

I want to know what actions are available, not just a generic gripe.


My example is similar, except my girl does the Advanced placement and science classes and she just laughs if kids would say thing like "science is for boys".


How can you say which kid is more representative of kids in society today?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Change is slower in math/physics/engineering, but I think eventually it's inevitable.

So do I, but my worry is that, if there is further intervention to accelerate the change, that those efforts will actually derail the progress we made. Social engineering is full of well meaning efforts that actually make the situation worse. I think that, in reality, more of them fail in this manner than succeed.

Kids rebel - IMHO, but a pretty strong IMHO. Try to force the issue, and we'll get a reversion to the older roles because that'll be the next cool rebellious thing.

Social norms are not something that just switch over. They have so much momentum, and it's like moving a giant boat with a little tug. It takes generations, not a legislative action.

Again, expose them to everything and let them choose their own paths. They'll do just fine. Heck, they'll do just fine even if they pick paths we don't personally agree with. It's not hard.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,400]

>Bill made the point that this is corrected in today's school - the implication that
>those programs did serve their purpose.

They did - and they do. They take a lot of effort, and I think it pays off. The "women's week" was just one part of their outreach programs.

>Is it helping, or is it now stifling the kids?

It's seemed to help at MIT. Women are now just another part of the student body, rather than an often-ignored and often-underserved minority. To get there required treating them differently; a paradoxical approach if equality is your goal.

But as always, neither extreme (ignoring the problem vs. mandating a 50/50 mix) is a good solution. The best compromise is going to be found somewhere in between those two extremes. In the case of MIT it was an MIT-funded program to encourage more women to apply.

>Do you think it's a huge enough of a problem, for TODAY's kids, to force the kids or
>the teachers or the parents to behave in a proscribed manner, even against their
>inclinations?

I assume you mean "force them to not behave in a proscribed manner" (or behave in a prescribed manner) - in which case I agree. While kids and teachers MUST be forced to behave in certain ways (don't throw rocks, don't beat up the black kids etc) that's limited in scope, and you can't control all their behavior.

>Or do we trust the parents and kids to do their job - even when we don't always
>agree?

Again, to a degree - yes. But we don't trust parents when they decide their kids should not be educated, and we don't trust kids when they'd rather take six classes of study hall a day. We have requirements for education and within that education "force" kids to take certain courses of study.

>Because that's exactly the end game here, do we force behavior we choose on others?

To some degree, yes. The challenge is both forcing behavior that is absolutely required (i.e. respect for others, learning) while leaving them enough freedom to develop their own personalities and decide their own courses through life.

[rehmwa 2]

I'll take that whole post as "moderation, don't overdo it in any direction, basic respect rules apply"

I agree with that, of course - it's pretty much what I've been saying

but the process and the respect has to be king - not some arbitrary position on results based intervention

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jcd11235 0]

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I think that, in reality, more of them fail in this manner than succeed.

That's why I think providing incentive for individual states and/or school districts to address the problem as laboratories of democracy is the best path to solution. Perhaps many of the attempted solutions will be largely ineffective, but there will likely be some that are both effective and can be scaled up while maintaining that effectiveness.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[sandi 0]

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You have a great, single, example.

But what is your action? Do you own it and talk to your child about it? or do you want the government to change how the other parents do their parenting? ...or both?

I want to know what actions are available, not just a generic gripe.


My example is similar, except my girl does the Advanced placement and science classes and she just laughs if kids would say thing like "science is for boys".


How can you say which kid is more representative of kids in society today?

The point is that the attitude that math is for boys is still here in our society. You've been saying that there isn't a problem.

And if you think little girls are not influenced by what other girls say to them you know nothing about children.

I'm saying that although the problem may not be as bad as it was 20 years ago, it isn't gone.

[rehmwa 2]

Sandi - I need you to read this as someone speaking softly. ok?

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The point is that the attitude that math is for boys is still here in our society. You've been saying that there isn't a problem. no I haven't, I saying that we need to see if the efforts to fix a problem that we haven't scoped may be worse than the current problem itself. I also stated that we addressed that problem with our girl learning to deal with it in her way, not by censoring or trying to change the kids we don't have control over.

And if you think little girls are not influenced by what other girls say to them you know nothing about children. that's a mean and reactive statement that I should ignore. If you like, I'll tell you all about the teasing and bullying my daughter got when she was young and how it affected me on such a deep level. However, what policies do you want to put in place, then, to control the speech and thoughts of those other little girls then? My only solution is for me, to be involved in my daughters life and know her friends and do my best. Again, I can't control the other parents, nor do I want to. If that's allowed, then when do they get to control me? Some kid told your kid that math is for boys.....did you talk to that kid's parents, respectfully, and with concern for both your kid and theirs? i bet 90% of the time, that parent would be upset and talk to their kid directly. I've done it, several times, when it's important enough. I expect the same from them. - no intervention needed from the school, or the government.

we all want to do our best for our kids. sometimes we forget, that the other parents also feel that way


I'm saying that although the problem may not be as bad as it was 20 years ago, it isn't gone. here you acknowledge that we are moving in the right direction - so what else do you propose we do in addition that doesn't intrude on the other parent's child raising styles?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sandi 0]

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Sandi - I need you to read this as someone speaking softly. ok?

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The point is that the attitude that math is for boys is still here in our society. You've been saying that there isn't a problem. no I haven't, I saying that we need to see if the efforts to fix a problem that we haven't scoped may be worse than the current problem itself. I also stated that we addressed that problem with our girl learning to deal with it in her way, not by censoring or trying to change the kids we don't have control over.

And if you think little girls are not influenced by what other girls say to them you know nothing about children. that's a mean and reactive statement that I should ignore. If you like, I'll tell you all about the teasing and bullying my daughter got when she was young and how it affected me on such a deep level. However, what policies do you want to put in place, then, to control the speech and thoughts of those other little girls then? My only solution is for me, to be involved in my daughters life and know her friends and do my best. Again, I can't control the other parents, nor do I want to. If that's allowed, then when do they get to control me? Some kid told your kid that math is for boys.....did you talk to that kid's parents, respectfully, and with concern for both your kid and theirs? i bet 90% of the time, that parent would be upset and talk to their kid directly. I've done it, several times, when it's important enough. I expect the same from them. - no intervention needed from the school, or the government.

we all want to do our best for our kids. sometimes we forget, that the other parents also feel that way


I'm saying that although the problem may not be as bad as it was 20 years ago, it isn't gone. here you acknowledge that we are moving in the right direction - so what else do you propose we do in addition that doesn't intrude on the other parent's child raising styles?

Rehmwa, I didn't mean to insult you I see that you do understand that school aged girls can be mean. So you understand that laughing it off isn't always that easy. When my daughter came home upset that other girls were mean to her because she's better at math than the rest of her class that obviously afftects me. I want my daughter to have every opportunity to do what she likes and what she is good at. I don't want to see her veer away from math when she enjoys it so much. And certainly we sat down and had a long conversation after that happened.

Obviously you don't know me, but I am very against government being involved in parenting (aside from abuse or neglect). Parents can parent the way they choose to.

I would also be against quotas making it easier for anyone to get into any program based on gender or anything else. The most qualifiled applicants should get in. As a woman I would be insulted if I thought standards were lowered just to fill spots with women. There are plenty of intelligent women out there - there is no need to dumb things down for us.

I think there should be more community outreach programs from math/science/engineering targeted at elementary aged children. I think I do my part. I have presented at women in science conferences and at outreach programs. We have a women in science program that has girls come to the department for an afternoon and meet women scientists and see what we do first hand. I think that exposure is important. But I think there should be more of that, not only geared toward girls but boys as well. Why not show kids that there are all these wonderful opportunities for their future careers regardless of gender.

[rehmwa 2]

Thanks, once the dust settles, (and the strawmen usual suspects get tired of trolling) we usually do find that most here on this forum have the same views.

You sound like a great mom and neat person.



{{"Women in Science", meet 'women' scientists'}} I resonate with all of your post, but, like in skydiving, I don't have the perspective to understand why we think girls need 'female' role models, rather than just 'successful' role models. It seems to be a conscious effort to confuse what's important.

It seems we are telling girls they are less capable, and then parade successful women in front of them to counter the first statement.

Isn't it easier to just not do the harm in the first place and let our sons and daughters know that they can choose ANYONE for inspiration?

I have skydiving role models - I don't really think about it, but some are women and some are men - my criteria isn't the gender, it's their attitudes and abilities. Ditto for professional life. Ditto for personal. I don't see why we don't just be like that from the start and teach it that way....But, I'm just a guy.

I've never seen boys tease or completely ostrasize each other for little crappy cosmetic stuff like "he doesn't wear glasses like we do". But I've seen girls do that kind of thing a lot. Maybe the differences indicated by that does mean certain consideration for cosmetic differences are necessary during the early formative years. Something for me to consider. Something in me wants to resist that - it seems insulting to females to even acknowledge that.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

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You have a great, single, example.

wait a minute. When anyone else gives a story point, you keep saying it's a single example and not reflective of the greater picture. Yet your evidence is your own singular examples - your daughter, and your singular observations of her classes. What's special about you?

The number of singular stories on the other side and the CURRENT graduation rates strongly suggest that your singulars are the exceptions, not the rule.

[rehmwa 2]

You're a pain Kelpy,

it was just a single to balance the other single exactly to make the point that individual anecdotes don't matter.

Not intended to demo a gross trend, just the opposite, to highlight that as individuals we all have our own choices and paths to take. As well as how we choose to react to events.

There were a few here that were a pleasure to discuss this with. Yours aren't. You don't respond to the content, you just want to construct false 'gotchas', your style isn't discuss but attack. I'm not a fan of that style here in SC, I think it brings down the level of discourse a lot. And it's not fun or informative, just antagonistic.

I've made my points, done here.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SivaGanesha 2]

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My daughter being told that math is for boys didn’t come from the teacher, it came from other kids who most likely were told that by their parents.

Only a guess but I'm guessing it didn't originate with the parents. I'm guessing the message your daughter picked up originated with older girls going through puberty.

As girls hit puberty they begin to 'notice' the boys and, in particular, they notice that the boys who are into math/science are nerdy/geeky. That's not the kind of guy that the girls want to hang out with at that point, so they abandon their own interest in math/science to get out of that neighborhood, so to speak.

To increase female participation in math/science I think you need to first improve the image of the male participants in those fields. Why would a young woman choose a career where she will be surrounded by men she finds unattractive?

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[kallend 1,623]

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Since women can't be forced to study in fields they're not interested in, quotas will have to be implemented, which will reduce the amount of men allowed to study in these fields.

Absolute nonsense. math, engineering and physical science are underrepresented overall in the US compared with majors like journalism, psych, polisci and business. Most universities have capacity to spare in STEM. Increasing the number of women in these areas will not impact male enrollment in the slightest.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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There were a few here that were a pleasure to discuss this with. Yours aren't. You don't respond to the content, you just want to construct false 'gotchas', your style isn't discuss but attack. I'm not a fan of that style here in SC, I think it brings down the level of discourse a lot. And it's not fun or informative, just antagonistic.

oh, cry me a river. You chose to make it antagonistic with charges I wanted government to take over parenting, and with sarcastic replies to serious discourse, and now you're playing the martyr? The guy who avoided the content and whined about tactics he was using himself?

Fine, go sulk in the corner.

[jakee 1,254]

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OK, apparently, I have to be grim and upset to get my point across (which will be ignored by some regardless of tone) rather than enjoy the usual banter and friendly discourse which I do get from you and few others.

That's not the point. The point is you're playing the SC crap by pouncing on a loosely worded phrase ('make thm want to...') and insisting the people you're arguing with actually seriously meant this "You advocate forcing the kids to think to your subjective standards..." even though you know that's really not the case and now you're getting all pissy because those people object to being misrepresented.

So, y'know, lighten up.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Arvoitus 1]

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Since women can't be forced to study in fields they're not interested in, quotas will have to be implemented, which will reduce the amount of men allowed to study in these fields.

Absolute nonsense. math, engineering and physical science are underrepresented overall in the US compared with majors like journalism, psych, polisci and business. Most universities have capacity to spare in STEM. Increasing the number of women in these areas will not impact male enrollment in the slightest.

How are you going to increase the amount of women in engineering for instance if there aren't more women willing to study engineering? And then when the only measure of equality is the rate of participation what else options do the master social engineers have left then to curtail the amount of men allowed to study engineering?

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[jcd11235 0]

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How are you going to increase the amount of women in engineering for instance if there aren't more women willing to study engineering? And then when the only measure of equality is the rate of participation what else options do the master social engineers have left then to curtail the amount of men allowed to study engineering?

Have you read the thread? You're at least the third person to ask essentially the same question, a question that has been answered numerous times.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Arvoitus 1]

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How are you going to increase the amount of women in engineering for instance if there aren't more women willing to study engineering? And then when the only measure of equality is the rate of participation what else options do the master social engineers have left then to curtail the amount of men allowed to study engineering?

Have you read the thread? You're at least the third person to ask essentially the same question, a question that has been answered numerous times.

Yes and the answers were talk about some vague systemic discrimination towards women in STEM based on anecdotal evidence. All the solutions were similarly vague points about encouraging women to study in these fields they currently aren't participating in high numbers. What happens then when these soft options fail?

Since you people seem to love personal anecdotes so much, how many women do you know that would be interested in 'hard' engineering (machinery, bridges, buildings etc.). Then compare that to amount of men you know who work on those fields of work. And don't give me more crap about sexism and other various bullshit excuses. The only real problem for women, who go to engineering, is the fact that there are at least 50 men for every woman, and everyone of those 50 men will try and fuck her.

And how about the reverse side of this issue? Why isn't anyone worried about men not making it in domains that are dominated by women nursing, teaching etc. Teaching, for instance, is an extremely critical field in that boys need male teachers since there are differences on how boys and girls learn. And having the teaching field dominated by women, and their style of teaching, is having an impact on boys school success. And currently the master social engineers are doing nothing but giving lip service to the fact that the school system is clearly failing on boys.

Again, since people love these personal anecdotes, my sister went to study bio-tech, everybody was very supportive and had very positive attitude about it. My female cousin studied enviro-engineering, her engineering dad couldn't be happier. My male cousin said that he'd be interested in becoming a nurse, the amount of crap he got from, both men and women, was insane. He never did go study to become a nurse.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[kallend 1,623]

You could try reading the replies BEFORE asking the same question again.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

>All the solutions were similarly vague points about encouraging women to study
>in these fields they currently aren't participating in high numbers.

I gave a concrete example of what I did to help with that, and what my school did. And it worked.

[jcd11235 0]

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Have you read the thread? You're at least the third person to ask essentially the same question, a question that has been answered numerous times.

Yes and the answers were talk about some vague systemic discrimination towards women in STEM based on anecdotal evidence.

Apparently you read a different thread.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[rehmwa 2]

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and insisting the people you're arguing with actually seriously meant this "You advocate forcing the kids to think to your subjective standards..."

Fair enough, that the kind of stuff I knee jerk at too - then it's just a matter of who started it and that pissing contest goes nowhere.

short answer - I don't see a way to actively fix this without trying to change how people think - and that's not an answer. People's thinking will change over time on its own though. Blues

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

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short answer - I don't see a way to actively fix this without trying to change how people think - and that's not an answer. People's thinking will change over time on its own though. Blues

If it were an easy problem, or even a moderately difficult problem, it would be further along to a solution by now. Very small, even unintentional, cultural biases can have pronounced effects.

Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers book looks deep into what makes a lot of the highly successful get to that point. For athletes, the month of birth is a huge one, more than anything else. He also discusses a relevant question - why Asians are good at math, and why southerners are quicker to raise their fists*. Is it 100% true? Probably not, but it is very good thinking material.

* the southerner thing is asserted to be an example of learned cultural norms regarding politeness and honor and suggests that 'making girls like math' is not a simple task.