More illegals?

[SkyDekker 1,120]

Quote

Every time I leave the US, I am heavily armed and in uniform.

I knew you were military and was going to add something along those lines.

If you have ever entered the US through a civilian installation, you would have dealt with CBP.

[SivaGanesha 2]

Quote

Quote

Actually, I, for one, did participate with some interest in your thread re: this about a year ago; but unfortunately I'm not sure what more (other than agreeing with you) I can do for you than whatever your own lawyers may have done or are doing for you. It stinks that you've had bad results in court thus far. If your case is still on appeal, I certainly hope you win it, since I think you're being treated most unfairly. And yes, I find the practical denial of due process (not habeas corpus, btw) very disturbing.

Thank you for the correction - I think my lawyers are using habeas to request the right of due process. Although I confess, much of the jargon ultimately exceeds my grasp.

What Andy9o8 said. Actually I also participated in response to your earlier message. To be clear on myself--I am NOT an attorney. However I'm very familiar with the process because I've been through it. I grew up in Canada but came to the US as a very young adult and have now spent more than half my life in the US. I'm now a dual citizen and am very familiar with all the games that need to be played to deal effectively with CBP, USCIS, ICE, etc.

I wish you the best of luck but agree w/Andy9o8 that if you are currently represented by counsel they should be your primary source of info. It would not make any more sense for someone to offer legal advice over and above what your own attorney is saying than it would to for someone to try to correct online the skydiving advice of someone's skydiving instructors.

Having said that it would seem to me that a two pronged approach would be desirable here. One is to cut down the clear cut cases of abuse by CBP that occur at the Canadian border (and elsewhere). And the other is for Canadians who cross the border regularly to become MUCH more familiar with US rules in regard to customs and immigration. Some of these abusive situations might be avoided if Canadians put some effort into better learning the rules.

See, I completely agree with you that CBP expressed its concerns to you in an abusive manner. But I also understand why CBP might have had some concerns in your case. A quick look at your profile shows that you are a "USPA Coach, Pro Rating". And in the CBC article in which you are quoted you say that you are a videographer--"takes professional-level photographs and videos [of skydiving]". So you are qualified professionally to work in your field--both as a coach and a videographer. Moreover you have a USPA coach rating--not a CSPA coach rating--meaning you have taken the time to earn the appropriate professional rating to work in your field IN THE USA--as opposed to Canada. So just playing devil's advocate--I can understand why CBP asked some questions about your intentions.

Now I believe you when you say that, despite the fact that you are qualified, you had no intention of working for pay in your field in the USA. Unfortunately, however, the legal test is a bit stronger than that if you want to enter the USA legally. Even if you intend not to work for money, are you performing services (for free) that--if you weren't there at Eloy--an American might have been hired to do (for a fee)? By performing services for free, are you taking a job away from an American who might have been hired to do the job if you weren't there? That's the actual test. I don't know the answer to that question because I've never been to a boogie at Eloy and don't know how they do things there. But, clearly, there are times when American videographers and coaches do get paid for their services.

But, again, having expressed some sympathy for the fact that CBP might have had some concerns, clearly their response of a 5 year bar was extremely abusive. At worst it seems to me you were guilty of a little lack of familiarity with the law--and certainly NOT of intentionally misrepresenting yourself. So at worst they should have told you they couldn't let you in THAT DAY and invited you to try again in a day or two once you could better document your situation and what you were planning to do at Eloy.

So I wish you the best in your legal battle. But I also hope that other Canadian skydivers who cross the border frequently for boogies will learn from your experience and will try to understand the other perspective as well--that maybe CBP DID have some legitimate concerns.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[aphid 0]

Quote

I wish you the best of luck but agree w/Andy9o8 that if you are currently represented by counsel they should be your primary source of info.

I am neither looking for advice or sympathy. My intent is to fight this individually, but in the process educate some Americans about the agency who represents an image to incoming foreigners... not just Canadians. You see, I don't think the system will ever be corrected from outside your borders.

Quote

Some of these abusive situations might be avoided if Canadians put some effort into better learning the rules.

Agreed. But if your country is trying to sell Disneyland and South Beach and Manhattan to foreigners, it might be a good idea to figure out ways to make them feel just a bit more welcome at the Ports of Entry?

Quote

A quick look at your profile shows that you are a "USPA Coach, Pro Rating".

Simply because there are no CSPA (or BPA or NZ) items in the dropdown menu. Apologies if that is confusing...

Quote

So just playing devil's advocate--I can understand why CBP asked some questions about your intentions.

But of course. No issues with the line of questioning. Being told repeatedly (with malice and hostility in every sentence) that I MUST be working because "nobody can do that for free" just tells me your border representatives seem unable to accept there is a world out there just a little different than their own experience.

Quote

By performing services for free, are you taking a job away from an American who might have been hired to do the job if you weren't there?

Um... the issue was that I was the team camera-person for the Canadian National CRW team as well as Canadian 4way FS team. NB: Canadian, where ALL of us have to be Canucks.

Quote

But, clearly, there are times when American videographers and coaches do get paid for their services.

Of course. And I never did one jump that interfered with them. Perhaps you could enlighten me how I could PROVE that when CBP kept insisting "nobody can afford to do that".

Quote

I also hope that other Canadian skydivers who cross the border frequently for boogies will learn from your experience and will try to understand the other perspective as well--that maybe CBP DID have some legitimate concerns.

Yes, I have done my damndest, rather successfully if I may be so immodest, to inform every Canadian skydiver I can. Don't worry though, the numerous pretty single female Canadian packers still seem to pass through with complete immunity every autumn.

[SivaGanesha 2]

Quote

Agreed. But if your country is trying to sell Disneyland and South Beach and Manhattan to foreigners, it might be a good idea to figure out ways to make them feel just a bit more welcome at the Ports of Entry?

True. But I get the sense that it isn't usually the people who are clearly coming in as tourists who have a problem. It is the people who are staying a bit longer but calling themselves 'tourists' (from an immigration, not a skydiving, perspective) who tend to have trouble.

Quote

Simply because there are no CSPA (or BPA or NZ) items in the dropdown menu. Apologies if that is confusing...

Thank you for the correction--although even being rated in Canada it still could raise questions.

Quote

Um... the issue was that I was the team camera-person for the Canadian National CRW team as well as Canadian 4way FS team. NB: Canadian, where ALL of us have to be Canucks.

If you were formally representing Canada during a trip to a foreign country, did you bring along a letter from CSPA explaining that you were representing Canada, stating you wouldn't be paid for your services while oustide Canada, and stating that you would return to Canada afterward? Did you bring a similar letter from the US hosting organization--probably either the DZ or USPA--providing a similar assurance? Did you cross the border at a time when these organizations would be open to receive a telephone call in case CBP wanted to call to verify?

That's usually how these matters are handled to minimize the chance of trouble. Of course, it is possible you did all these things and still encountered an unusually difficult officer such as this Officer from Helle--in which case, again, I wish you well in your legal battle.

Quote

Of course. And I never did one jump that interfered with them. Perhaps you could enlighten me how I could PROVE that when CBP kept insisting "nobody can afford to do that".

As noted above, usually this is done by bringing along some documentation beyond just hoping they will take your word for it.

Quote

Don't worry though, the numerous pretty single female Canadian packers still seem to pass through with complete immunity every autumn.

Single young women who are crossing the border for indefinite time periods get hassled every day by CBP. However in that case the assumption tends to be made--and also considering a packer doesn't really need to bring much across the border besides their own gear--that they are going to visit and essentially live with a US boyfriend. Usually in that situation they are allowed in but with an I-94 for some limited time period (eg 1 month).

Often that is when they decide it is time to marry the US boyfriend to end the hassles.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[aphid 0]

And that's the rub. You suggest we carry documentation to prove a double-negative. You suggest that we need "official" stuff from CSPA to go to our winter training camps on our dollar, investing in your economy. You suggest the imperative is on the visitor.

Think about it rationally for a moment. Should we now carry all the following to answer every possible query?

- copy of home ownership title to establish residency?
- marriage certificate to prove we have a spouse to go home to?
- copy of latest income tax return to prove we have domestic income?
- copy of stock portfolio to prove independent means?
- copy of med insurance to prove no reliance on your beleaguered healthcare system?
- copy of a Police Report to prove we are not criminals?
- copy of something from a national body proving we are training for competition?

The LAW says, we enter as Canadians in visa-exempt status with a valid passport. That is the LAW.

Yet it is implied that we should accept, tolerate and cater to individual personnel making-it-up as they go and be prepared to carry a satchel of documentation for any imagined potential question?

I suggest that the imperative rather is on the government personnel to be better educated and less hostile. Regardless of my situation, if not at least for the grandpa and grandma driving to their winter home, with a small selection of basic handtools in their vehicles trunk. I would also suggest that your system should grant Due Process properly.

You have a background/interest in skydiving, and if you couldn't see the deteriorating nonsensical (my opinion) approach at the Ports of Entry, then it is no wonder it is impossible to explain our unique circumstances to a whuffo with a uniform, a gun, and an attitude.

Thank you for your input. (Oh. I personally know a number of female packers that go south annually, and I can assure you none of them have been "hassled" to my knowledge)

John

[SivaGanesha 2]

Quote

You suggest the imperative is on the visitor.

The imperative IS on the visitor. It is up to you to persuade them to let you in. The fact that you are proposing to spend money in the US economy is, indeed, often quite persuasive but there CAN be other factors come into consideration. There are risks involved in everything in life like skydiving, driving, or crossing an international border as a visitor.

As I've said before in this thread, I think you were unusually unlucky in how you were treated but the decision to take that risk was yours.

Quote

Think about it rationally for a moment. Should we now carry all the following to answer every possible query?

- copy of home ownership title to establish residency?
- marriage certificate to prove we have a spouse to go home to?
- copy of latest income tax return to prove we have domestic income?
- copy of stock portfolio to prove independent means?
- copy of med insurance to prove no reliance on your beleaguered healthcare system?
- copy of a Police Report to prove we are not criminals?
- copy of something from a national body proving we are training for competition?

Again, risk management. The more documents you carry the lower the risk but at a certain point the risk is low enough that it may be silly to worry.

If someone is attending their green card interview where their entire future may be on the line, they often will bring all of the above and more.

For crossing the border in tourist status it would be very rare to carry this much paperwork. But I assure you it is NOT unusual--in general, I cannot comment on skydiving in particular--for someone crossing the border for some specific US event to carry some documentation about the event--especially if the event might not be familiar to CBP people.

Quote

The LAW says, we enter as Canadians in visa-exempt status with a valid passport. That is the LAW.

Yes, that is the law. The problem is that sometimes Canadians misunderstand what this law means and somehow think that a Canadian passport is a guarantee of risk-free entry to the USA. It's not and never has been.

What it does mean is that, for many nationalities, they have to first apply for a visa at a consulate and then actually attempt to enter the country. Both the consulate (State Dept) and the border (CBP) have the power to reject such a person. For a Canadian, they may legally skip the first step and avoid the consulate entirely--but the border (CBP) still has the power to reject them.

US immigration law has an international reputation for being very strict--and this has always been the case even before 9/11--here's another post by a non-US skydiver considering steering clear of the US because of its tough immigration laws:

change of career/ cutting away

The "visa exempt" status does NOT--contrary to the apparent belief of many Canadians--excuse Canadians from these tough laws. It simply means there is a bit less bureaucracy in some cases.

Quote

Yet it is implied that we should accept, tolerate and cater to individual personnel making-it-up as they go and be prepared to carry a satchel of documentation for any imagined potential question?

I suggest that the imperative rather is on the government personnel to be better educated and less hostile.

"Better educated and less hostile"? I'll agree with you on the "less hostile" part but I have to disagree on the "better educated" part. If you are crossing the border to take part in an unusual activity--such as skydiving--expecting the CBP to be well educated on that activity seems a bit unreasonable to me. Bringing some documentation to help them understand seems like common courtesy to me. You asked earlier about how much documentation a person is expected to carry. Usually people bring along extra documentation only for aspects of their situation that might be a bit unusual.

Quote

I would also suggest that your system should grant Due Process properly.

Agree with you that there should be some due process. Bear in mind, though, that due process takes time and it generally requires entering into evidence some of that documentation you seem reluctant to carry with you. Does Canada offer such a thing to Americans denied entry?

Quote

You have a background/interest in skydiving, and if you couldn't see the deteriorating nonsensical (my opinion) approach at the Ports of Entry, then it is no wonder it is impossible to explain our unique circumstances to a whuffo with a uniform, a gun, and an attitude.

Like I said I think you were unusually unlucky but--as in the link I posted--other skydivers do seem to understand that US immigration law is quite strict.

Quote

Thank you for your input. (Oh. I personally know a number of female packers that go south annually, and I can assure you none of them have been "hassled" to my knowledge)

I believe you but I don't think it has anything to do with their gender or looks--because definitely young single women DO have problems on occasion. Your friends have simply been lucky so far and you were not.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[aphid 0]

Fair enough. We'll just agree to disagree.

John

[aphid 0]

(My apology for resurrecting an ancient thread, but I was hoping to get Andy908's attention, as his account does not accept private messages)

Andy, my appeal against US Customs has finally been scheduled 27 months after filing at the District Court and 46 months after the initial incident. I would forward privately a copy of the latest email(s) from my legal-beagles outlining the ACLU will be actively participating on my behalf at the Oral Argument phase as well as the case file# should you care to be interested.

John

[NorrinRadd 0]

jgoose71

P.S. Can I visit Vancouver next year? They got the best strip clubs....

OMG the Vancouver strip clubs are absolute shyte! You want GOOD strip clubs, go to Montreal. Having lived in both cities, I know this to be true.

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Go to Laval.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[NorrinRadd 0]

CanuckInUSA

Go to Laval.

Yes! The real pros.

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

NorrinRadd

***

P.S. Can I visit Vancouver next year? They got the best strip clubs....

OMG the Vancouver strip clubs are absolute shyte! You want GOOD strip clubs, go to Montreal. Having lived in both cities, I know this to be true.

In defence of jgoose71's opinion, it may simply be out of date. Twenty to thirty years ago Vancouver had a first rate dancer scene with three agencies competing the vigorously for both talent and venues. The result was good for both the well paid dancers and the patrons. Sadly those days are long past as perhaps ten percent of the venues employ poorly paid and motivated dancers (I use this term very loosely) who are all controlled by a single agency. C'est dommage.

[Andy9o8 0]

John, I just saw your post. I wish you the very best of success, as I think you and similarly situated folks are being treated outrageously.

[aphid 0]

Andy9o8

John, I just saw your post. I wish you the very best of success, as I think you and similarly situated folks are being treated outrageously.

Thank you.

One quick question: what is an adjunct professor? It appears in the biography of the attorney the ACLU is sending to present on my behalf.

http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/biography-lee-gelernt

Thanks,

John

[ryoder 1,380]

aphid

Thank you.

One quick question: what is an adjunct professor? It appears in the biography of the attorney the ACLU is sending to present on my behalf.

http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/biography-lee-gelernt

Thanks,

John

Like a substitute teacher, but at the college level: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professors_in_the_United_States#Adjunct_Professor

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[aphid 0]

Thanks

[Andy9o8 0]

ryoder

***

Thank you.

One quick question: what is an adjunct professor? It appears in the biography of the attorney the ACLU is sending to present on my behalf.

http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/biography-lee-gelernt

Thanks,

John

Like a substitute teacher, but at the college level: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professors_in_the_United_States#Adjunct_Professor

I'd describe it as a part-time and/or per-course instructor, who is not considered part of the full-time faculty of a college/university, and is hired on a per-semester basis. Not on formal tenure track. I've taught at the college and law school levels as an adjunct: trial advocacy (to law students), business law (to undergrads and paralegal students), constitutional law (to both undergrads and law students), legal research and writing (to law students and paralegal students). A buddy of mine, who was a business major and math minor, and now works in corporate management, also teaches math and business courses to college undergrads.