Opinions wanted - hole in canopy

[pinkyfloyd 0]

First I will outline some of my pertinent facts:

~130 jumps over 2+ years in sport
2 cutaways to date
rig: Aerohio student (rental) gear, Vector 290, 230 reserve (I think...?)

Scenario:

Approximately two months ago, I initiated my second cutaway. After an uneventful skydive, I opened at 5,000 feet and experienced a very hard opening (my second in one week with this rig). Upon checking my canopy I saw a hole of approximately two feet along one of the seams in the 6th cell (bottom layer only, I couldn't see any sky through the canopy). A quick controlability check showed that the canopy was performing just fine, however I had previously learned that "a hole in the canopy larger than a basketball should be chopped". Thus, I cut it away, reserve opened just fine, and on landing the reserve I did a textbook PLF (due to coming in much faster than normal, under the reserve) as witnessed by several instructors. However, I did crack one rib on the PLF, minimizing my jumps for the next four weeks or so.

Fast forward to two days ago. I did a hop and pop at altitude, had a very nice soft opening, was under canopy by about 12,500, and when I looked up, there was a very large tear in the middle seam of the seventh cell, approximately 2/3 of the length of the 290 I had over me. A controlability check and several practice flares showed no apparent change in normal flight characteristics. My exit weight is about 235, so my wing loading on this particular canopy was a very conservative .8/1 (pre-tear, anyway). Suddenly I discovered that having plenty of time to think about cutting away can be a very bad thing.

All sorts of thoughts started going through my head:

* The canopy is just fine, why chop it?
* Many people chimed in after my last cutaway and stated that I probably could have landed it just fine
* I'm over 12,000 feet, will we ever find the main and freebag?
* Should I wait until about 7,000 then chop it?
* If I have to land under this reserve again, will it be any worse than just a cracked rib?
* I'm not wearing a jumpsuit, just shorts and a T-shirt, what if I have a very fast landing and get all banged up?

So I did a bunch more practice flares and kept a very close eye on the tear, and it was not getting any bigger at all. Canopy still performing just fine. 8,000 feet now. At that point I made the decision that if I got to 4,000 and the tear had not gotten any larger, that I would ride it all the way in. I spent the rest of my time under canopy doing only conservative turns, practice flares, and looking up at the tear. I landed it uneventfully.

After the incident, I discussed what happened with several instructors/veteran jumpers, and got mixed opinions. Everything from "You are standing here talking to me, so you made the right decision" to "I would have chopped it, PERIOD." (each of these comments came from skydivers with 7000+ jumps each).

I'm not sure exactly what I am looking for as far as advice, maybe just anything of relevance.

Thoughts? Anyone? Buehler?

-Q

[skyflyerh 0]

I just wonder why there were rips in the canopy that nobody had noticed? Two canopies ripped in the same DZ in such a short time, seems strange. Did you ask the people who had packed them had they not noticed the rips?
I don't know prolly would have choped, it's easy for people to say what they would have done if they were in your boots, but your walking and talkin so this time it was the right decision. But don't be afraid of getting under that reserve if you need to.

[pinkyfloyd 0]

Just for additional information, the incident in question was my second jump of this rig in the same day, the canopy was just fine on the previous jump, no tearing at all.

Same with the previous incident, I am confident that both tears occured during each jump, that they were not pre-existing conditions.

-Q

[yoink 321]

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* I'm over 12,000 feet, will we ever find the main and freebag?

-Q

Dude, you're under a torn up canopy...

A parachute and a freebag can be replaced if needs be. Don't let this sort of thing influence a decision to chop if you need to!

[rasmack 0]

You're in charge when you're up there, so you get to make the decision and live (or worse) with it. I will not second-guess your decision. I would only point out to you that I hope you didn't make it "because you didn't want another cutaway".

Sounds to me like you've got a cool thinking head on those shoulders.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[pinkyfloyd 0]

I have to say, I think the biggest influencing thought on the decision to not cutaway was "OK, as it stands now, I have a "good" canopy over my head, and I still have a spare in the container. Even after having two uneventful, textbook cutaways where the reserves performed just fine, I think it was the thought of having a reserve mal.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey,

To tell you the truth, I probably would have done very similar to you. I know I would have ridden it down to a much lower altitude at the very least. I mean what's the worst that could happen, the canopy rips and you have to cut away? or maybe it starts flying erratically, cut it. In this case I definately would have contemplated landing it but if it ripped below 2k, I'd be shitting myself if it got to the point when I "HAD" to cut it. I'd rather get rid of it close to the ground but not too close, and not risk landing a damaged parachute.

You made a choice, you're ok, that's good. Now you have the experience. I had a mal last weekend and I had a pretty-square parachute, but i had a line crossed causing a spin. I could counteract it with the right toggle to my hip, but I didn't feel comfortable landing a "damaged" canopy. Training kicked in and said: It's not a perfect parachute, get rid of it. Now in that same scenario, if I had full control and only had to have the toggle to my ear or something, I bet I would have landed it.

Good work on your EP's and clear thinking!

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Andy9o8 0]

The problem with a hole like that is that if the canopy suddenly goes tits up (like the rest of the seam popping) at a low altitude, you could be in deep shit. Also, up high (or even at 2K) you really can't easily gauge your rate of descent – it might be a lot faster than you realize it, but by the time you realize it you're at 150 feet. Personally - and this is just me - I would have ridden it down to about 3K (conditions permitting) & then chopped it.

[selbbub78 0]

I do high altitude hop-n-pops all the time (practice for CRW). I know if I opened up at 12K and saw a tear, I'd be concerned about it, would keep my eye on it, but drain the altitude some, and cut it away around 4K. There is absolutly no way that I would attempt to land a canopy that has a tear in it. For all you know, that tear could get bigger at a low altitude. What would happen if at 1K (or less) it just tore more? Say, you hit a burble, or have something that caused the canopy to act in a bizarre way to cause it to rip. I definitely would NOT have landed it. My other question that I have for you, is what size is your reserve? You mentioned in your post that you came in much faster than normal since you were under the reserve? I know my reserve is actually bigger than my main. I don't think I'd want a smaller reserve that I'd have worries about breaking a rib with. I'd want to know that if I needed my reserve (and can pull it) that it will safely bring me down to the ground without any accidents occuring.

CReW Skies,

"Women fake orgasms - men fake whole relationships" – Sharon Stone
"The world is my dropzone" (wise crewdog quote)
"The light dims, until full darkness pierces into the world."-KDM

[jwynne 0]

Bottom line, you're fine, it was a good decision. I will admit to being influenced years ago as a new jumper. I'd paid for 2 reserve pack jobs in one week. When the loaner canopy above my head opened up backwards my first thought was, another reserve repack! I did a controlability check, thought about the logistics of flying and landing it backwards and decided it was safe. Big factor, it was a falcon 215. i don't think I'd try it with my canopy now.

One other comment. You should have no hesitation to use your reserve due to concerns about landing it. Before you buy your own gear, take a day to demo reserves. Some gear stores have demo reserves. If not, the gear manufacturers do. If you need a bigger reserve to feel comfortable, do that.

Janna

[Andy9o8 0]

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Bottom line, you're fine, it was a good decision.

I know many people feel this way, but I don't think it applies to all situations, and I think it's over-used in skydiving. Sometimes you can make a decision and have an acceptable outcome, but in retrospect it was still not a good decision. That applies to everything, and I don't think skydiving is any exception.

[riggerrob 558]

You made a decision and you walked away from it.
Clearly, you made the correct decision.

Take it form someone who has torn dozens of first-generation tandem mains and 20 reserve rides .... Some can be landed, while others must be cutaway.

The "basketball" rule of thumb is designed to eliminate any hesitation among first jump students. As you gain more experience, we expect you to put a bit more thought into cutaway decisions.
For example, if a canopy is mostly inflated, but has a small hole, experienced jumpers are expected to perform a control check before cutting away. While doing control checks on damaged canopies, I learned that a small hole - even only a foot long - in the top skin means that it will fold up during a practice flare.
On the other hand I have landed several tandem canopies torn from nose to tail along a bottom skin seam, with only minor turn problems.

The only way hole is going to get bigger - after opening - is if you pull hard-core 720 carving turns onto final. Clearly a dumb idea with a damaged canopy!

The bottom line is: if it mostly inflated - and above 2,000 feet - and has only a small tear, then you have time to do a control check.

[pinkyfloyd 0]

Andy,

I think this is the main reason I brought this up in the first place...I'm not satisfied with the logic that just because I didn't get injured or killed, that I made the right decision.

It would appear as the best decision, in retrospect, and based on input from both here and my dz, is to have had more experience landing the reserve type/size in this rig, flying the canopy down to a lower altitude (6,000) then cutting it at that point.

thanks for all the input everyone

-Q

[mjosparky 3]

Just a couple of points:

What is a Vector 290? Have never heard of it. Why did you jump rig without knowing what the reserve was?

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I did a textbook PLF

You cracked a rib, so your PLF was less then perfect. It sounds like on point of contact was you side not your back. This probably put an elbow into your ribs.

As for your decision on the cutaway, as has been mentioned already you were the only one there. You have to go with the knowledge and experience you leave the airplane with. My rule of thumb is more than one line broken or damage involving a seam chop it.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[MarkM 0]

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I know many people feel this way, but I don't think it applies to all situations, and I think it's over-used in skydiving.

I think the bigger cause of fatalies is lack of calm clear thinking with rapid decision making, not that the person made a decsion that's a small percent worse than another choice.

So while everyone may not agree with the choice being made, the fact that it was a calm reasoned choice made with an awareness of the circustances at the time makes the though process "correct".

[selbbub78 0]

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I know many people feel this way, but I don't think it applies to all situations, and I think it's over-used in skydiving.

I think the bigger cause of fatalies is lack of calm clear thinking with rapid decision making, not that the person made a decsion that's a small percent worse than another choice.

So while everyone may not agree with the choice being made, the fact that it was a calm reasoned choice made with an awareness of the circustances at the time makes the though process "correct".

I can agree with what you're saying, but what would be my major question is the fact that he's had 1 reserve ride already that resulted in a cracked rib. From what was stated, it makes me think that this person didn't want to use their reserve since they were afraid of another injury. That definitely shouldn't be the case. Now I don't know what size reserve it is, and perhaps there were circumstances behind the first cutaway that resulted in the cracked rib. perhaps it was a downwind landing in horrible winds that couldn't be avoided, or maybe some thermals got to the canopy and caused a hard landing, or something.

Although there was a calm decision made, I still disagree with the logic that they didn't want to break another rib or have some other injury occur.

CReW Skies,

"Women fake orgasms - men fake whole relationships" – Sharon Stone
"The world is my dropzone" (wise crewdog quote)
"The light dims, until full darkness pierces into the world."-KDM

[rwieder 0]

I saw a skydiver who was very experienced with a line over (I'm above him) i'm thinking, cut that bitch away. He wasn't flying an AAD and flying in a spiral, so he cut at roughly 1000 AGL so he wouldn't have to walk so far to recover his main. I TRIPPED! He was flying Camera and he then went into the packing area and promptly chewed out the packer's ass. Good thing he had a backup rig!!

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[georgerussia 0]

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I saw a skydiver who was very experienced with a line over (I'm above him) i'm thinking, cut that bitch away. He wasn't flying an AAD and flying in a spiral, so he cut at roughly 1000 AGL so he wouldn't have to walk so far to recover his main.

It sounds crazy - risking your life just not to walk so far :(

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[pinkyfloyd 0]

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What is a Vector 290? Have never heard of it. Why did you jump rig without knowing what the reserve was?

I am going by memory, not sure exactly what the make/model of the canopy was, I just know for sure that it was a 290. I had to sell my own rig about 60 jumps ago, and have been using our student gear since then, until I can afford to buy a new rig. This was one of the only two rigs I jump regularly.

I am not confident the reserve was a 230, it was either a 230 or 260. Regardless, it was the same reserve that I landed semi-successfully on my prior cutaway. My understanding of the reserves that are paired with our student canopies is that they are appropriately sized for the recommended jump weights for each rig. However, being made of different fabric adds to the increased speed after flaring, along with being a bit smaller than the mains.

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You cracked a rib, so your PLF was less then perfect. It sounds like on point of contact was you side not your back. This probably put an elbow into your ribs.

From what I understand it was textbook, not necessarily perfect. I ended up with a grass stain on my left shoulderblade, and the cracked rib was on my upper left side, my best bet is the rib was due more to my left upper body rolling forward in a manner it's not generally intended to move in...plus I'm not a small guy, so that didn't help things. I guess it was the best I could manage not having had to do one in probably over a year. I suppose some PLF practice in the hangar might just be in order as well.

[Ron 7]

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I think this is the main reason I brought this up in the first place...I'm not satisfied with the logic that just because I didn't get injured or killed, that I made the right decision.

Get used to it. This is a sport where right and wrong often depends on if you have a pulse at the end of it.

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It would appear as the best decision, in retrospect, and based on input from both here and my dz, is to have had more experience landing the reserve type/size in this rig, flying the canopy down to a lower altitude (6,000) then cutting it at that point.

There was a fatality just this mth with a reserve. You had a canopy that you made a call that you thought was landable. Why trade a controlable canopy for something that might mal and kill you?

You did the right thing just like you did. Period.
That does not mean that it will be the right thing next time.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,393]

>It would appear as the best decision, in retrospect, and based on
>input from both here and my dz, is to have had more experience landing
> the reserve type/size in this rig, flying the canopy down to a lower altitude
>(6,000) then cutting it at that point.

Eh, if you fly a canopy with a hole in it from 12,500 to 4000 feet, turn hard a few times, do several control checks and it's OK - the odds of it coming apart from 4000 feet to the ground are pretty astronomical. It's always a judgement call. For the hole you describe I wouldn't cut away a larger canopy (say a Manta) but I would cut away a smaller canopy (say a Sabre2 135.)

The good news here is now you know what size/type of hole is landable, so you have a benchmark. Hole on the same sort of canopy but smaller? Probably landable. Larger, or more holes? Maybe not. One more data point to add to your mental notebook.

[mjosparky 3]

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I am going by memory, not sure exactly what the make/model of the canopy was, .................I am not confident the reserve was a 230, it was either a 230 or 260. Regardless,

The point I am trying to make is you have been jumping for 2 years, you should not get on an airplane without knowing what is on your back. You are no longer a student, you need to start being responsible for yourself. Part of that is knowing what kind of gear you are jumping and maybe even pack it your self.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Foggy 0]

Welcome to the real world, Q'Bert. When teaching students in the FJC we want to eliminate any "questions" during the malfunction process so as to simplify the training. Once licensed your experience and awareness should (hopefully) grow to allow you to assess different situations and react accordingly. The only right answer is the one that gets you to ground safely and as you may have gathered from this thread so far, you can do everything according to the book and still get it wrong.
I had a rotating Mal under a Manta 288 on my 4th square jump due to a locked brake line and elected to cut it away and found a round reserve overhead. A few years later I had the same locked brake line under my Spectre170 and elected to land it on back risers. This choice was based on my having flown the canopy on back risers a number of times prior (courtesy Scott Miller training).
In other words, you are no longer a first jump student but do not let that stop your continued learning in this sport. We do not have all the answers

Foggy
D21109

p.s. How is Tim with you ripping his student gear to shreds?

[jaitken 0]

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As for your decision on the cutaway, as has been mentioned already you were the only one there. You have to go with the knowledge and experience you leave the airplane with. My rule of thumb is more than one line broken or damage involving a seam chop it.

I've got at least 2550 fewer jumps than mjosparky, so take this for what it's worth...
Two years ago, I experienced a very hard opening on a Sabre2 230. Once I quit seeing stars, I noticed a rip in the right-side stabilizer. I was able to turn and flare normally, so I landed the canopy. When a rigger and I later inspected it, we found a small rip along one of the seams on the bottom skin that I hadn't noticed in the air. Should I have chopped it? Hard to say. The tear was only a few inches long and wasn't visible under canopy, so landing it seemed like a reasonable choice given that it flew and flared normally.

Fast forward to last year at the CSS Easter Boogie. I had a premature deployment in a sitfly at about 7000'. After kicking out of several line twists (and clearing my head -- damn that opening hurt) I noticed that both steering lines were broken below the cascades. I was able to steer and flare with the rear risers, but elected to cut away because I wasn't sure what else might be wrong with it. I landed safely under the reserve, had PD inspect and reline the canopy, and lived to jump another day.

FWIW...



Jeff

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
--Mario Andretti

[mjosparky 3]

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The tear was only a few inches long and wasn't visible under canopy, so landing it seemed like a reasonable choice given that it flew and flared normally.

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noticed that both steering lines were broken below the cascades.

As I have said before the decision to chop or not is yours and yours alone, because you are up there alone. You have to make that decision based on your best judgment and the knowledge you have when you left the plane.

In both your cutaways I may or may not have done the same. But I will never second guess you for how you handled them.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals