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dannydan

IS it torchs and pitchforks time yet?

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These were never people who actually wanted to be Americans. They were just parasites from their own miserable shithole countries who came here to suck off the fatted cow.

And that was true of many of our ancestors, too.

Wendy P.



Speak for yourself. My Grandfather wanted to become an American citizen. He wasn't a parasite who fled during "the First Great Recession". He stayed and roughed it out. Not like these scumbags.

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I don't think anyone can argue that we don't need imigration reform, but ignoring enforcing our existing laws is not the answer as it sets a dangerous legal precedent where certain laws are only enforced selectively.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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>My Grandfather wanted to become an American citizen. He wasn't a parasite who fled
>during "the First Great Recession". He stayed and roughed it out. Not like these
>scumbags.

So did mine. You'd probably call him a "parasite that fled after the Potato Famine." I am glad he was able to. Because of him there are now engineers, teachers, stockbrokers, construction workers, programmers and nurses working here in the US. Horrible, I know.

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"came to the United States before they were 16 and who are younger than 30 if they have lived here for five years, have no criminal history, graduated from a U.S. high school or served in the military

Sooo maybe I missed something but don't you have to be a legal citizen to join our military



No you do not.
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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>My Grandfather wanted to become an American citizen. He wasn't a parasite who fled
>during "the First Great Recession". He stayed and roughed it out. Not like these
>scumbags.

So did mine. You'd probably call him a "parasite that fled after the Potato Famine." I am glad he was able to. Because of him there are now engineers, teachers, stockbrokers, construction workers, programmers and nurses working here in the US. Horrible, I know.



They went through the process to become legal U.S. citizens and worked for it. They didn't get it handed to them so some politician could (hope) to get votes.


Chuck

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Hi Rick & Ken,

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don't you have to be a legal citizen to join our military

No you do not.



Back in 1959 when I joined there was a guy from Mexico, who could not speak any English, who joined as a path to US citizenship.

Apparently, that is still one path available.

JerryBaumchen

PS) We also had a guy from New Mexico who would translate everything for the Mexican guy. Sure made basic training a hoot on occasion. :P

The drill sergeants could not tell Who's On First.

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Danny, I take it that your ancestors all came to North America via Siberia during the last Ice Age. What Native American tribes are you descended from?



C'mon And You're not going to toss that old rag out there are you? It makes about as much sense as patching a submarine with stucco! We're talking about ILLEGAL aliens getting a free pass into this country and a sold-out son of a bitch for a president. How convenient that he passes this 'law'... 4-months from an election! Chuck



My response was to the OP's Neanderthal use and abuse of the term "True and Sincere Patriotic Americans". Fuck that, on about 5 different levels.

As an aside, show me one past or current president (or candidate for same) or member of Congress (ditto) who wasn't/isn't a sold-out son of a bitch, and I'll show you.... well, maybe Gerry Ford, but really nobody else. So please don't get all sanctimonious on us. (That's my job.)




Does Ron Paul count?

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Hi Rick & Ken,

Quote

don't you have to be a legal citizen to join our military

No you do not.



Back in 1959 when I joined there was a guy from Mexico, who could not speak any English, who joined as a path to US citizenship.

Apparently, that is still one path available.

JerryBaumchen

PS) We also had a guy from New Mexico who would translate everything for the Mexican guy. Sure made basic training a hoot on occasion. :P

The drill sergeants could not tell Who's On First.


Yes, here is the official answer from the Military recruiting website: Do you accept for enlistment individuals who are not U.S. citizens?

To be eligible for enlistment in the Army or Army Reserve, an individual must be an American citizen or lawfully admitted to the United States for permanent residence [10 United States Code, Section 3253(c), 8253(c)].
We cannot assist people to come to the United States or assist them in getting permanent resident status. We can work with people who already have permanent resident status or who can show they are in the process of receiving permanent resident status.
Offices of the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services can provide information concerning entry as a resident alien.


From: http://www.2k.army.mil/faqs.htm
"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

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>My Grandfather wanted to become an American citizen. He wasn't a parasite who fled
>during "the First Great Recession". He stayed and roughed it out. Not like these
>scumbags.

So did mine. You'd probably call him a "parasite that fled after the Potato Famine." I am glad he was able to. Because of him there are now engineers, teachers, stockbrokers, construction workers, programmers and nurses working here in the US. Horrible, I know.



Apparently your definition of a parasite is different than mine. If my Grandfather had only left Ireland to come to the US for the sole purpose of making money, with no intention of becoming a US citizen and then gone back to Ireland, then he would have been a parasite. But that wasn't his intention. He desperately wanted to be an American. He joined the Army and fought for America in WW1. Hardly a parasite by anybody's definition. Except yours.

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You do not need to be a U.S citizen to serve. You cannot hold a Secret clearance, but you can still serve. Long as you swear to support and defend.
_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

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All politics aside, even though it's clear which side of the fence I sit on, I'm wondering what those who practice law think of the feasibility of getting the courts to issue a writ of mandamus to make the executive branch enforce the laws on the books.

Not necessarily would they, but could they?
Peace, love and hoppiness

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>It sucks that their parents lives were shitty enough that they would actually trade a
>lifetime of criminality for a marginally better way of life for them and their children

My grandparents did just that - came here without regard for quotas or immigration limits. And yes, their lives were shitty before they came here, and they got only marginally better once they got here. I am glad they were able to do that.

>I just don't see how anyone can deny that we as a country have to put our sovereign
>right to choose who we do and who we do not allow to come into this county aside.

We shouldn't. But we should choose to err on the side of letting people who grew up here stay here - since the majority of them did nothing wrong to begin with.

If you grew up here, got a job, started college, maybe joined the military - and then you found out that you weren't actually a citizen - would you just leave? Figure "well, I don't belong here, I guess my home is somewhere else?"



So you're trying to tell me that the majority of illegal aliens in the US are the sons or daughters of us citizens who were just born outside the country and didn't know it.... Right./
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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Danny, I take it that your ancestors all came to North America via Siberia during the last Ice Age. What Native American tribes are you descended from?



C'mon And You're not going to toss that old rag out there are you? It makes about as much sense as patching a submarine with stucco! We're talking about ILLEGAL aliens getting a free pass into this country and a sold-out son of a bitch for a president. How convenient that he passes this 'law'... 4-months from an election! Chuck



My response was to the OP's Neanderthal use and abuse of the term "True and Sincere Patriotic Americans". Fuck that, on about 5 different levels.

As an aside, show me one past or current president (or candidate for same) or member of Congress (ditto) who wasn't/isn't a sold-out son of a bitch, and I'll show you.... well, maybe Gerry Ford, but really nobody else. So please don't get all sanctimonious on us. (That's my job.)



john McCain. And your attitude shows that you won't consider any arguments against you anyways...
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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Anyone who thinks John McCain isn't as much of a congressional whore as anyone else in Congress, or anyone else who has run for president, is a gullible fool. And you're not remotely qualified to read my or anyone else's mind, sonny boy.

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So you're trying to tell me that the majority of illegal aliens in the US are the sons or daughters of us citizens who were just born outside the country and didn't know it.... Right./



You have a real knack for telling people what they're saying and thinking and getting it wrong. Quit before you embarrass yourself further.

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>They went through the process to become legal U.S. citizens and worked for it.

No, they didn't. They just got on a boat and came here and hoped the US would welcome them. Fortunately the US did. If they tried that today they'd be thrown in jail.

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with the current POTUS' stance as well as the majority of REPRESENETIVES blatantly looking the other way on the immigration law. There are roughly 600 treasonist elected citizins running this nation. Will the True and Sincere Patriotic Americans wait until it's too late to take back our country or is it time now?



When the first of my ancestors came here everyone was welcome.

When the last showed up everyone was welcome except the Chinese.

At that time America was the greatest country in the world.

As a True and Sincere Patriotic American who has travelled in a few continents and interacted with an atypically broad range of people I conclude "lax" immigration policy had a lot to do with our greatness.

Changing the laws back to what made us exemplary is a lot harder politically than relaxing enforcement in some areas (Obama's Justice Department had almost prosecuted more Felony Illegal Rentry cases in one term than Bush 43 managed in two terms when I last checked and I'd guess he got there although I haven't looked at the latest numbers if they've been published).

Most of the immigrants don't pay enough income taxes to cover their costs, although in that regard they're no different from native born Americans in the same situation who are a lot more numerous and that problem needs to be addressed as a separate issue.

To grossly simplify:

1. I have problems intellectually reconciling that me being here is OK because the American entries in our oldest family bible date to the 1600s and the most recent immigrants among my ancestors arrived in the late 1800s which I had nothing to do with although people whose family showed up more recently with the same affirmative answers to questions like my family's such as "are you a criminal or sick" are not welcome.

2. We get more American drive and innovation from people who work to get here than people who lucked out and were born to the right parents and coast. If I wasn't such a propeller head this point would be first.

I've hung out with American born hippies living in communal houses and doing the least work they could while still feeding themselves (I spent fifteen years in Boulder, CO and my sister joined me for a few of them while she attended a small Buddhist liberal arts college where students had assigned meditation times). I've dealt with oodles of young American born job candidates who were lacking and got flushed in the interview process because they were incompetent slacking light-weights. I've hung out with guys from Mexico working three jobs some under the table who were most certainly here illegally. I've hung out with guys from central America running their own businesses where I'd give them 50/50 odds.

The guys who worked to get here but are likely "illegal" thanks to a few pen strokes are more American in a Jimmy Stewart sort of way than the rest of them.

I've hung out with European drug addicts living on "social money." I live in America where about half the population are paying no income tax and conclude that's the direction we're headed.

With the reticence of politicians to cut the bread and circuses to limit the teat sucking "americans" draining our country we need fresh "American" blood from elsewhere to stay on top.

3. We're better off when more of our competition must pay to live here instead of in an emerging market where the cost of living is ludicrously less and the wages can be proportionally lower than ours.

4. The "immigration" debate is slight of hand (reference Orwell's
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Minutes_Hate]Two Minutes Hate[/url] from 1994) distracting us from significant real issues radically reducing our quality of life.

As long as you're focused on hating "The Illegals" you're not going to notice that government policies passed on behalf of corporatist interests have doubled what you or your children will pay for a house, that the price of your children's education has increased at 4X the rate of inflation, that your health care costs have suffered similarly, that you're now paying banks a lot ($5000 a year for a prudent middle class couple living someplace expensive) to store the cash you need to weather unexpected events like unemployment, etc.

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Well, you could always just start blowing away people you think are illegal immigrants. One at a time, y'know.
:|

Is that really the worst problem we have, the one worth talking about overthrowing the government?

Wendy P.



No Wendy, no one is going to violently "overthrow" the gov't. The sensationalism you apply is "junior high" at best and a long known political tactic.

However, the sad commentary is that you live in a perceived indestructible bubble of ignorance.

The United States is not indestructible.

Do you REALLY understand the impact of a single person who doesn't pay their taxes?? No, you don't.

12 million plus ILLEGAL immigrants not paying property taxes (which support local schools, driving your property taxes up.) Hey, if you want to start a charity for illegal immigrants to go to school, cool!! But, don't use my money to do it.
Not paying into the federal or local tax base (driving up your cost across the board).
Sending a good portion of their earnings to Mexico to support their families there (not spurring local economies).
Free medical. Nothing is free, nothing.

What about the immigrants that have spent years and thousands of dollars to legitimately go through the naturalization process? You don't think they are a little peeved?

Nobody is crapping on LEGAL immigrants; the more the merrier in my book. However, everyone should be concerned about ILLEGAL immigrants.

I could go on.

Listen, if you want to donate your paycheck to illegal immigrants, go right ahead. BUT WHAT GIVES YOU THE RIGHT TO DONATE MINE!!!!

No wonder you took this "Will the True and Sincere Patriotic Americans wait until it's too late to take back our country or is it time now?" as this "Well, you could always just start blowing away people you think are illegal immigrants. One at a time, y'know."

Good job Wendy!! You have mastered the art of context misrepresentation, deception, and mud slinging. When are you running for office?
"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts

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>12 million plus ILLEGAL immigrants not paying property taxes (which support local
>schools, driving your property taxes up.) Hey, if you want to start a charity for illegal
>immigrants to go to school, cool!! But, don't use my money to do it.

In Texas illegal immigrants pay $1.6 billion more into the system in taxes than they take in benefits. Also true in California ($2.7 billion) Florida ($800 million) and New York ($700 million.)

So if you kick them all out, are you willing to make up that deficit? Or do you figure it will just magically appear somewhere?

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>12 million plus ILLEGAL immigrants not paying property taxes (which support local
>schools, driving your property taxes up.) Hey, if you want to start a charity for illegal
>immigrants to go to school, cool!! But, don't use my money to do it.

In Texas illegal immigrants pay $1.6 billion more into the system in taxes than they take in benefits. Also true in California ($2.7 billion) Florida ($800 million) and New York ($700 million.)

So if you kick them all out, are you willing to make up that deficit? Or do you figure it will just magically appear somewhere?



Everyone who continues to own property pays property taxes because otherwise the tax-lien holder has it seized and sold at auction.

Nearly all renters pay property taxes indirectly with the portion of their rent covering costs before the landlord's profit is collected (rent on a few rental properties does not cover costs where the owners were stupid and bet on appreciation to make up for it although the long term average after inflation is around zero).

Homeless people don't pay such taxes; although that holds regardless of their immigration status. I've yet to run into a homeless person who was neither white nor black and likely to be from elsewhere and therefore conclude that immigrants are disproportionately non-homeless property tax payers regardless of their legality.

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>12 million plus ILLEGAL immigrants not paying property taxes (which support local
>schools, driving your property taxes up.) Hey, if you want to start a charity for illegal
>immigrants to go to school, cool!! But, don't use my money to do it.

In Texas illegal immigrants pay $1.6 billion more into the system in taxes than they take in benefits. Also true in California ($2.7 billion) Florida ($800 million) and New York ($700 million.)

So if you kick them all out, are you willing to make up that deficit? Or do you figure it will just magically appear somewhere?



The koolaid must taste great.B|

http://www.newsmax.com/US/immigrants-illegal-texas/2012/04/04/id/434787
"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts

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>12 million plus ILLEGAL immigrants not paying property taxes (which support local
>schools, driving your property taxes up.) Hey, if you want to start a charity for illegal
>immigrants to go to school, cool!! But, don't use my money to do it.

In Texas illegal immigrants pay $1.6 billion more into the system in taxes than they take in benefits. Also true in California ($2.7 billion) Florida ($800 million) and New York ($700 million.)

So if you kick them all out, are you willing to make up that deficit? Or do you figure it will just magically appear somewhere?



The koolaid must taste great.B|

http://www.newsmax.com/US/immigrants-illegal-texas/2012/04/04/id/434787


How are those illegal immigrants different from statistically similarly economically disadvantaged other people with low tax remissions?

They're not in any significant way and since they're a lot less numerous and we'd be better off fixing the larger root problem than applying a Band-Aid to a small subset of it.

Our income tax system is exceptionally progressive, topping the OECD 24 including Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, The Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, The Slovak Republic, Sweden, Switzerland, and The United Kingdom. The legal low-earners are a much bigger share of the problem.

Of course fixing this is unlikely since the politicians have an easier time staying in office when the majority who elect them isn't paying for their spending and many of the remainder are distracted by irrelevant issues like illegal immigration instead of their tax burden.

Prior to 1913 there was no federal income tax. The 1913 income tax law allowed a $3000 exemption for single people ($65,331 in 2010 dollars) and $4000 for married couples ($87,108). The next $20,000 ($435,544) was taxed at 1%. Robber barons raking in $500,000 a year ($10,888,595) paid the top tax rate of 7%.

You'll see the real problem if you compare and contrast that with your standard + personal exemptions and marginal tax rate.

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