Interested in what you find wrong with this...

[kelpdiver 2]

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I just think the wishes of the parents are better than the rest of us deciding for them.

I do see any good in having every parent decide which aspects of history and science and literature they want taught to their children in public schools. There is already a overly politicized and long process around the setting of curriculum that (hopefully) covers a suitable range to prepare these students for the real world. Talking about evolution in biology, or climate (change) in Geography is a given, as is slavery and WWII internments in US history.

My district had a test out option for the health requirement. If parents are afraid of their children being taught about sex by virgin teachers, they can get them to learn the basics and pass the test.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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It's up to the parents to prepare the kids for the real world. Not a bunch of strangers that think they are smarter than everyone else, even if they don't raise kids themselves....

Taken literally, that would put it on the parents to do all the teaching, which is how it was done up until public school systems were developed (unless you could afford private tutors). Perhaps a better way of thinking about it would be to regard teachers as professionals you hire, or choose to trust your kids with, because they actually have the expertise to help students understand various subjects well enough to be able to use their knowledge to think critically about things, or perhaps to eventually create new knowledge or technologies or art/music/whatever. Schools can offer curricula that parents can choose, or not, based on their perception of the best long-term interest of their kids. If you want a good grounding in math, science, literature, history choose A. If you prefer instead that your kids be able to discuss how many angels can fit on the head of a pin, if there is enough demand there should be a school B for that. Don't choose A then demand that they should drop history and substitute angel tetris.

Regarding teachers as "a bunch of strangers who think they are smarter than everyone else" seems unnecessarily derogatory to me.

Another thing, discussing controversial topics can be a great opportunity to teach critical thinking skills. Why does side A believe what they do, what is the evidence, how good is the evidence (what kind of experiments/observations, how many replicates, is it just based on anecdote, etc). Same for side B. What do you (i.e. the student) think is correct? What kind of evidence would it take for you to change your mind? Simply not talking about certain topics because they are contentious is a form of censorship. While that may be OK if your intent is to indoctrinate kids, it doesn't prepare them to think for themselves (which might be the point for some parents).

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[mnealtx 0]

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>why do you think anyone not taking sexual health or climate change doesn't get a
>diploma?

For the same reason that someone not taking evolution (or math) doesn't get a diploma. It's an important part of the curriculum.

What schools teach evolution as entirely separate class from science/biology?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,396]

>What schools teach evolution as entirely separate class from science/biology?

None that I know of.

[kallend 1,623]

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I get your points.

I just think the wishes of the parents are better than the rest of us deciding for them.

In clear cases of abuse, then that goes out the window of course.

So, apparently the "line" is somewhere between: Interfere if the parent is beating his kids with bricks and knives ................and.............it's not really our business if the parent wants to expose the kids to various philosphies about helping ones neighbors when times are tough


I line up quite a bit on the physically substantial side before I'd interfere with a parent and their child - some people want to interfere if the parent even thinks different than them.



Again, if schooling was private and free market, then this is moot. It's up to the parents to prepare the kids for the real world. Not a bunch of strangers that think they are smarter than everyone else, even if they don't raise kids themselves....

Teaching creationism in school is intellectual child abuse.

Failing to teach sex ed is plain vanilla child abuse.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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>What schools teach evolution as entirely separate class from science/biology?

None that I know of.

That would speak against your statement above of it being a requirement for gradation then, wouldn't it?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,396]

>That would speak against your statement above of it being a requirement for
>gradation then, wouldn't it?

?? No. Schools do not teach fractions separate from math. But if you refuse to let your child attend any math classes that cover fractions, you likely would not pass the course. (And if that course is required for graduation, as math generally is, then you wouldn't graduate.)

[mnealtx 0]

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>That would speak against your statement above of it being a requirement for
>gradation then, wouldn't it?

?? No. Schools do not teach fractions separate from math. But if you refuse to let your child attend any math classes that cover fractions, you likely would not pass the course. (And if that course is required for graduation, as math generally is, then you wouldn't graduate.)

The point under discussion was your claim of evolution being a requirement for graduation, bill...not math.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[billvon 2,396]

>Evolution, not math, Bill.

Correct. Evolution is part of biology. Fractions are part of math. Pull your kid out of either one - and they likely won't graduate.

Is that worth it to the parent? Maybe, maybe not.

[mnealtx 0]

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>Evolution, not math, Bill.

Correct. Evolution is part of biology.

Which, of course, is why you said 'biology (or math)' upthread. Oh, wait - you didn't.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,623]

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>Evolution, not math, Bill.

Correct. Evolution is part of biology.

Which, of course, is why you said 'biology (or math)' upthread. Oh, wait - you didn't.

You REALLY should learn some set theory. It is part of math, of course, but more advanced than fractions.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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>Evolution, not math, Bill.

Correct. Evolution is part of biology.

Which, of course, is why you said 'biology (or math)' upthread. Oh, wait - you didn't.

You REALLY should learn some set theory. It is part of math, of course, but more advanced than fractions.

Biology (or bill's imaginary evolution class) != mathematics.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 1,623]

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>Evolution, not math, Bill.

Correct. Evolution is part of biology.

Which, of course, is why you said 'biology (or math)' upthread. Oh, wait - you didn't.

You REALLY should learn some set theory. It is part of math, of course, but more advanced than fractions.

Biology (or bill's imaginary evolution class) != mathematics.

QED You don't even understand your own position.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

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>Evolution, not math, Bill.

Correct. Evolution is part of biology.

Which, of course, is why you said 'biology (or math)' upthread. Oh, wait - you didn't.

You REALLY should learn some set theory. It is part of math, of course, but more advanced than fractions.

Biology (or bill's imaginary evolution class) != mathematics.

QED You don't even understand your own position.

From the Illinois graduation requirements:
"3 years of mathematics, one of which must be Algebra 1 and one of which must include geometry content;
2 years of science;"

Feel free to let them know they're mistaken.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[nanook 1]

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'The only national identity this school will care about is American' Easy to say but how does one define American national identity? What is it?

'this school will be guided by America's values.' Again, what are American values? Who gets to decide what American values are and which ones get included and excluded. What makes those values 'American' and how are they distinct from those of other nations?

Thank you. The answer is: There is no such thing as an American Value or American National Identity.

Usually people who say these kind of things are ignorant and/or racist. I'm pretty sure his "American Values" is different than my values. The author fails to realize that he is calling one type of culture in the U.S as superior.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,623]

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>Evolution, not math, Bill.

Correct. Evolution is part of biology.

Which, of course, is why you said 'biology (or math)' upthread. Oh, wait - you didn't.

You REALLY should learn some set theory. It is part of math, of course, but more advanced than fractions.

Biology (or bill's imaginary evolution class) != mathematics.

QED You don't even understand your own position.

From the Illinois graduation requirements:
"3 years of mathematics, one of which must be Algebra 1 and one of which must include geometry content;
2 years of science;"

Feel free to let them know they're mistaken.

Keep digging - it's amusing watching you.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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From the Illinois graduation requirements:
"3 years of mathematics, one of which must be Algebra 1 and one of which must include geometry content;
2 years of science;"

What was the English requirement? (Hopefully a higher bar than these two pathetic requirements represent.)

[Skyrad 0]

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'The only national identity this school will care about is American' Easy to say but how does one define American national identity? What is it?

'this school will be guided by America's values.' Again, what are American values? Who gets to decide what American values are and which ones get included and excluded. What makes those values 'American' and how are they distinct from those of other nations?

Thank you. The answer is: There is no such thing as an American Value or American National Identity.

Usually people who say these kind of things are ignorant and/or racist. I'm pretty sure his "American Values" is different than my values. The author fails to realize that he is calling one type of culture in the U.S as superior.

We have the same nonsense with people banging on about about British values (probably just the same as American values or any other countries) its usually the same type of people as well.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

On second thoughts Bill, Kwanzaa should be in the list of approved American holidays as it fits all the criteria. Its not religious and it is an American holiday, invented in America and pretty much celebrated only within the borders of the USA.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kallend 1,623]

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'The only national identity this school will care about is American' Easy to say but how does one define American national identity? What is it?

'this school will be guided by America's values.' Again, what are American values? Who gets to decide what American values are and which ones get included and excluded. What makes those values 'American' and how are they distinct from those of other nations?

Thank you. The answer is: There is no such thing as an American Value or American National Identity.

Usually people who say these kind of things are ignorant and/or racist. I'm pretty sure his "American Values" is different than my values. The author fails to realize that he is calling one type of culture in the U.S as superior.

We have the same nonsense with people banging on about about British values (probably just the same as American values or any other countries) its usually the same type of people as well.

There was never a Committee on UnBritish Activities, though.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

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Regarding teachers as "a bunch of strangers who think they are smarter than everyone else" seems unnecessarily derogatory to me.

that's not about teachers, that's about the opinions of those that want to force their idea of a curriculum on the public schools - be it the wacky enviro freaks, or the rapid religious - both sides are trying to hijack curriculums

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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Teaching creationism in school is intellectual child abuse.

Failing to teach sex ed is plain vanilla child abuse.

certainly the line the you draw in the sand about where gov should interfere in people's family is much more proactive than mine - just like the fanatical religious groups out there

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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Regarding teachers as "a bunch of strangers who think they are smarter than everyone else" seems unnecessarily derogatory to me.

that's not about teachers, that's about the opinions of those that want to force their idea of a curriculum on the public schools - be it the wacky enviro freaks, or the rapid religious - both sides are trying to hijack curriculums

Oops, I guess I misunderstood you. Sorry.

Still, someone has to decide what is and what is not in the curriculum, and I don't like the notion of excluding anything just because someone, somewhere, may find it controversial or offensive. There's always someone ready to complain, if not about the "facts", then about the way they are taught ("old" vs "new" math, phonics vs whole language, etc). Teaching by rote memorization/regurgitation can become indoctrination, but involved parents should be aware of what is being discussed in the classroom, and they should be prepared to provide their perspective on issues they feel are being taught in a one-sided manner. Children are not well served by an educational experience that does not challenge them to consider differing points of view, as they never develop the tools to decide for themselves what to believe.

On the other hand, some "life lessons" may be better taught by experience, rather than traditional classroom instruction. If students at school have to abide by rules of conduct that forbid acts of discrimination based on race, religion, sexual orientation, etc they will at least have the experience of many years in an environment where such conduct is unacceptable. I think that's more powerful than having to read a bunch of assignments about "my two dads" or black history month.

Don

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[pirana 0]

Some of it is good, some of it is not. Some of it can be easily manipulated and abused - some pretty familiar slippery slopes. Some of it can be seen as fitting everyone into a single mold and cranking out little drones.

Bottom line - almost every generation has been seen by their elders as slackers - very few exceptions. They are also always subject to hyperbolic negative generalizations. Makes good press and sells newspapers (or these days it is clicks on links).

There are 2 generations in particular, the Cavalier and the one with the flappers (can't remember what they were called off the top of my head); whose elders thought for sure would be the end of America. Didn't happen.

If you are the 3rd generation back (maybe even just the 2nd) and are abhorred with behaviors of some or all of our youth - that's understandable and normal - and your grandparents almost certainly felt the same way about your generation.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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Usually people who say these kind of things are ignorant and/or racist. I'm pretty sure his "American Values" is different than my values. The author fails to realize that he is calling one type of culture in the U.S as superior.

I read it again, and can't figure out if he is dissing the education system, the current generation of students; and whether he is racist, isolationist, or what.

If he is the typical angry pot-stirring talk show host - probably a little of all the above.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley