Healthcare poll #2

[kallend 1,621]

OK, some 70+ % of respondents here have healthcare and think freeloaders should pay up.

So what should be done about freeloaders.

Assume a hypothetical woman in her 50s, let's call her "Mary Brown". She is well off and runs a small business and doesn't think she should be forced to have health insurance - so much so that she sues to overturn a mandate.

Now "Mary" gets sick and stiffs her doctor for her medical bills. The cost of "Mary"'s expensive treatment gets passed on to others in the community.

What should happen?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 58]

Mary should go to the ER. That is what the illegal aliens do. That funds for that medical care is already in the budget.

However, by your example Mary went to a private physician and was treated. Obviously she was not very sick because no hospital stay was indicated.

The MD's attorney, already on retainer, should sue Mary for payment. If her business is a sole proprietorship, put a lien against her business.

Note, in FL the MD receptionist will ask for proof of insurance or payment up front before you can receive treatment. In FL we also have clinics offering treatment for free or reduced fees.

Bottom line, we don't need Obamacare. We have systems in place.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rushmc 18]

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OK, some 70+ % of respondents here have healthcare and think freeloaders should pay up.

So what should be done about freeloaders.

Assume a hypothetical woman in her 50s, let's call her "Mary Brown". She is well off and runs a small business and doesn't think she should be forced to have health insurance - so much so that she sues to overturn a mandate.

Now "Mary" gets sick and stiffs her doctor for her medical bills. The cost of "Mary"'s expensive treatment gets passed on to others in the community.

What should happen?

What we have today is better than anything you have supported

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[marks2065 0]

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OK, some 70+ % of respondents here have healthcare and think freeloaders should pay up.

So what should be done about freeloaders.

Assume a hypothetical woman in her 50s, let's call her "Mary Brown". She is well off and runs a small business and doesn't think she should be forced to have health insurance - so much so that she sues to overturn a mandate.

Now "Mary" gets sick and stiffs her doctor for her medical bills. The cost of "Mary"'s expensive treatment gets passed on to others in the community.

What should happen?

the doctor should sue her and garnish her wages until the bill is paid, just like other non paid debts are collected.

[airdvr 197]

I know I shouldn't be surprised that the personal responsibility side of things like Mary actually paying the bill or having her assets seized like any other debt fails to be an option for the left side of the aisle.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[kallend 1,621]

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I know I shouldn't be surprised that the personal responsibility side of things like Mary actually paying the bill or having her assets seized like any other debt fails to be an option for the left side of the aisle.

Ha ha. Mary Brown is a real person, a Republican, and the original plaintiff in the ACA lawsuit.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airdvr 197]

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I know I shouldn't be surprised that the personal responsibility side of things like Mary actually paying the bill or having her assets seized like any other debt fails to be an option for the left side of the aisle.

Ha ha. Mary Brown is a real person, a Republican, and the original plaintiff in the ACA lawsuit.

I must be missing the 'gotcha' part of your humor. People can and do file bankruptcy, and many times medical bills are a part of the debt. Probably more often than not a larger part of the $55K they listed. Doesn't mean she or anyone else would agree to be forced to purchase insurance that, most likely would have a deductible of far greater than the $4500 they claimed. In a word, the mandated insurance is CRAP coverage with deductibles so high most people couldn't afford to cover it anyways.

I think it a bit odd that you have nothing better to do than to try and set me up like this...it's sad really.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[lawrocket 3]

She's not stiffed if she gets sued to pay her bills.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,621]

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I think it a bit odd that you have nothing better to do than to try and set me up like this...it's sad really.

Wow, an impressive ego there.

IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT YOU.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wmw999 2,116]

The funds for that medical care (i.e. emergency rooms) is in the individual budgets for the many institutions that are required to provide that care under EMTALA. It's not free, and the feds don't reimburse it as a rule.

Lawrocket is right that EMTALA has a lot to do with all this. OTOH, we seem to be uncomfortable with letting people die simply because they don't verifiably have money right then.

And as far as the high deductibles -- are they higher than the cost of hte medical care? I don't think so.

It's really a matter of who one thinks should foot hte bills for one's medical care -- the patient (either with money or insurance), or someone else (e.g. medicaid, the local hospital district, etc).

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[doubleplay 0]

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Mary should go to the ER. That is what the illegal aliens do. That funds for that medical care is already in the budget.

However, by your example Mary went to a private physician and was treated. Obviously she was not very sick because no hospital stay was indicated.

The MD's attorney, already on retainer, should sue Mary for payment. If her business is a sole proprietorship, put a lien against her business.

Note, in FL the MD receptionist will ask for proof of insurance or payment up front before you can receive treatment. In FL we also have clinics offering treatment for free or reduced fees.

Bottom line, we don't need Obamacare. We have systems in place.

Really????? That's why ER's are overburdened by uninsured and can't function to care real emergencies. That's why thousands of people are being rejected by the insurance companies even if they are willing to pay. Systems in place? I bet you have never been to a country where real system is in place or never had to buy insurance for yourself or young and or naive.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Now "Mary" gets sick and stiffs her doctor for her medical bills. The cost of "Mary"'s expensive treatment gets passed on to others in the community.

Mary's doctors should sue her and collect their judgement starting with her unprotected assets (in California this would be everything but her retirement accounts, the first $50K in home equity, and a vehicle worth up to $5000. Her business and bank acount balances would be up for grabs). If that's not enough her wages should be garnished at the statutory maximum (25% of after tax income) until the balance is paid off including interest (10% in California) or she dies.

[tkhayes 124]

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Mary should go to the ER. That is what the illegal aliens do.

The ER does not provide all treatment that is necessary for many medical conditions. that's why it is called 'emergency'. Chronic illnesses, disease, and cancers are seldom, if ever treated in an ER. You will receive symptomatic treatment and then be sent home or receive a referral that will not likely be honored if you do not have the ability to pay.

Phantom is the perfect example of that. He died because he could not get the treatment he needed. When the ER finally admitted him because he was so sick they could not send him home, it was too late.

Jim Kime, Phantom, the honorary mayor of Skydive City/Z-Hills, died because of the failed healthcare system in the USA. THat is a fact, but whenever I bring it up, I get accused by the right of being a whiner and 'tugging at heart-strings'

Unnecessary

So back to the poll.....

[RonD1120 58]

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Quote

Mary should go to the ER. That is what the illegal aliens do. That funds for that medical care is already in the budget.

However, by your example Mary went to a private physician and was treated. Obviously she was not very sick because no hospital stay was indicated.
The MD's attorney, already on retainer, should sue Mary for payment. If her business is a sole proprietorship, put a lien against her business.

Note, in FL the MD receptionist will ask for proof of insurance or payment up front before you can receive treatment. In FL we also have clinics offering treatment for free or reduced fees.

Bottom line, we don't need Obamacare. We have systems in place.

Really????? That's why ER's are overburdened by uninsured and can't function to care real emergencies.

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Triage

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That's why thousands of people are being rejected by the insurance companies even if they are willing to pay.

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Weak argument, If you have a job you can get insurance. The problem is the economy and the job market. Making insurance mandatory does not guarantee the ability to pay. Thousands of unemployed being fined for not buying insurance when they can't make their mortgage payment doesn't make any sense to me.

Systems in place? I bet you have never been to a country where real system is in place or never had to buy insurance for yourself or young and or naive.

I am a retired American military veteran.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[tkhayes 124]

So they sue her, and get little or nothing because she may
-be out of work
-unable to work
-even if she is working, she does not make enough money to pay off perhaps hundreds of thousands in medical bills in a lifetime of working
-the payments she can make (perhaps ordered by the courts) will not cover the bill - so the bill(s) as suggested by the originating poll, are STILL passed on to other facets of society.
-the legal system that supports the function of lawsuits being able to be filed is PAID FOR and supported by tax dollars.

So we have money to support the system to sue people over medical bills, and possibly never collect, but we do not have a system to support the medical bills in the first place.

yeah that makes sense.......

[RonD1120 58]

I did not know this gentleman. I am curious. Why was an active jumper without health insurance? Why did he wait until his illness was life threatening to get treatment?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[tkhayes 124]

Phantom is the classic case. He is aging, has a failing liver.

No insurance

No way to buy insurance (and I forgot to add, not old enough to get Medicare yet)

goes to the ER when he is really sick. Gets symptomatic treatment and gets sent home. They are not going to admit him for a long stay of advanced liver disease treatment and he cannot get to see any specialist since he has no insurance.

Goes back to the ER when he is sick again - and again - and again

He finally is so sick they have no choice but to admit him and he dies in a couple of days.

People in this country are under a fucking delusion if they think that the indigent can get care in an emergency room. But everyone think that anyone with any illness can get treated there. bullshit.

Phantom IS the real-life example of the broken healthcare system. And now he's dead.

[wlsc 0]

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I did not know this gentleman. I am curious. Why was an active jumper without health insurance? Why did he wait until his illness was life threatening to get treatment?

In the UK we don't ask ourselves these questions. We have a national health service and we just get treated. You should try it.

[airdvr 197]

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Phantom is the classic case. He is aging, has a failing liver.

No insurance

No way to buy insurance (and I forgot to add, not old enough to get Medicare yet)

goes to the ER when he is really sick. Gets symptomatic treatment and gets sent home. They are not going to admit him for a long stay of advanced liver disease treatment and he cannot get to see any specialist since he has no insurance.

Goes back to the ER when he is sick again - and again - and again

He finally is so sick they have no choice but to admit him and he dies in a couple of days.

People in this country are under a fucking delusion if they think that the indigent can get care in an emergency room. But everyone think that anyone with any illness can get treated there. bullshit.

Phantom IS the real-life example of the broken healthcare system. And now he's dead.

End stage renal failure is covered by medicare.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[tkhayes 124]

perhaps he did not have 'end stage renal failure'.....

And even if he did, he needed treatment options before it got to 'end stage'

[wlsc 0]

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End stage renal failure is covered by medicare.

It's also covered by a National Health Service.

[Andy9o8 0]

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I did not know this gentleman. I am curious. Why was an active jumper without health insurance? Why did he wait until his illness was life threatening to get treatment?

It doesn't always work that way. For example, take a middle-aged person who has a gap in his health insurance because he gets laid off, it's a small company so it doesn't have to offer COBRA (which is still plenty expensive) and he has so many urgent bills to try to stay on top of, and so little cash on hand, that he doesn't immediately buy himself a private health insurance policy (which is expensive if it's even halfway decent; the cheap ones are complete shit). During that gap, he has a health issue like, say, a mild heart attack, or prostate cancer or something like that.

At that point, the US health insurance industry deems him "uninsurable" - due to his now-pre-existing condition - for a period of about 7 years, during which no private health insurer will sell him a policy no matter how much he tries to get one. So if he doesn't get re-employed at a job that provides health insurance, he's simply shit-outta-luck, period. And you know how easy it is for a laid-off middle aged person to get another full time job with benefits these days.

This is the kind of crack that people can, and do, fall through in the US that does not exist for people in every other industrialized nation in the world. Instead, we pour good money after bad into Iraq, Afghanistan (Vietnam? Hello?) and a bloated military, which doesn't make us one whit safer in our homes than if it was half its current size, all in the laughingly euphemistic name of "defense".

There is absolutely no moral, much less practical, excuse for it. Forget what liberals might say about it; conscientious conservatives should be outraged that their heartfelt values are being corruptly invoked, and their pockets are being picked, to perpetuate this.

[tkhayes 124]

awesome post - thank you...

[tkhayes 124]

Debbie Laws in 2001.

On Sept 11, 2001 about 2am, I took Debbie to the emergency room complaining of terrible abdominal pain. It was not her first trip for the same symptoms.

She had been sent home before with fluids and pain relievers. X-Rays revealed nothing but little or no further testing was done.

She had very basic Cobra (I think) due to a job change or she had just let it lapse, due to her financial situation. I remember distinctly her being very upset about not having (or the possibility of not having) insurance.

I took her back home after 4-5 hours in the ER, with little relief, but they did not admit her, they did not prescribe more tests, they did not want to find out what the real problems were, they just wanted her to feel better and go home.

I was driving back to my house when the 9/11 attacks occurred, but that is not the story here.

Days later, back in the ER, Debbie is finally admitted as she is so much complete pain she cannot cope. They do the necessary tests and discover a kidney (renal) infarction and after some tests, they realize the kidney is dying and they remove it.

Completely unnecessary. Had the ER admitted her earlier and done appropriate testing, they may have saved it. But they were not going to do that, nor are they required to.

Saddled with medical bills, Debbie, who worked as a waitress, can never have enough money to pay,

So she 'plays' the system as best she can, and gets herself declared 'disabled' at least to some degree. i have no idea of the intricate details of all that, but I know she was receiving some form of disability, and likely that helped to have the bills 'go away'.

This ties directly to the poll in this thread. Passing the buck to dump the cost onto someone else. So in the end, healthcare was provided, but too little too late and the cost was borne by all of society.

Did she do anything illegal? Not likely. She did the best she could with the programs that were in place. Instead of National Health paying for it, disability probably paid for it - different pot of money? Not really - it all comes from tax dollars.

Had the diagnosis been made earlier, an aspirin might have stopped the blockage that caused her kidney to die. Certainly the treatment may have been easier and cheaper that the nephrectomy.

Case #2. done. ER care DOES NOT in any way treat chronic cases or serious diseases. They operate on triage and they treat injuries/symptoms, then pass those cases onto specialists as needed, but ONLY if you have the ability to pay or your life is in immediate danger - often too late.

[kallend 1,621]

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I did not know this gentleman. I am curious. Why was an active jumper without health insurance? Why did he wait until his illness was life threatening to get treatment?

It doesn't always work that way. For example, take a middle-aged person who has a gap in his health insurance because he gets laid off, it's a small company so it doesn't have to offer COBRA (which is still plenty expensive) and he has so many urgent bills to try to stay on top of, and so little cash on hand, that he doesn't immediately buy himself a private health insurance policy (which is expensive if it's even halfway decent; the cheap ones are complete shit). During that gap, he has a health issue like, say, a mild heart attack, or prostate cancer or something like that.

At that point, the US health insurance industry deems him "uninsurable" - due to his now-pre-existing condition - for a period of about 7 years, during which no private health insurer will sell him a policy no matter how much he tries to get one. So if he doesn't get re-employed at a job that provides health insurance, he's simply shit-outta-luck, period. And you know how easy it is for a laid-off middle aged person to get another full time job with benefits these days.

This is the kind of crack that people can, and do, fall through in the US that does not exist for people in every other industrialized nation in the world. Instead, we pour good money after bad into Iraq, Afghanistan (Vietnam? Hello?) and a bloated military, which doesn't make us one whit safer in our homes than if it was half its current size, all in the laughingly euphemistic name of "defense".

There is absolutely no moral, much less practical, excuse for it. Forget what liberals might say about it; conscientious conservatives should be outraged that their heartfelt values are being corruptly invoked, and their pockets are being picked, to perpetuate this.

What he said.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.