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jclalor

Florida Teen Shot

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Not saying this shooting was justified or not,but people keep bringing up the body weight of the kid being only 140lb like there are no 140lb guys out there who can lay down any damage to anyone else.
I used to get in a few scraps when I was younger and I have seen some damn tough guys who were less than 140lb.
I am 6' 225-230lb,and I have a friend who is 5'6" and 135-140lb who I would not want to mess with unless I had no other way out, because there is most likely gonna be some blood and contusions involved,(probably on both of us).
Anyone who has been around knows that size is not everything. And since when is a teenager a little kid.
I personaly beat the shit out of a 32 year old man when I was 15 years old.
Just saying!

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.
I am 6' 225-230lb,and I have a friend who is 5'6" and 135-140lb who I would not want to mess with unless I had no other way out, because there is most likely gonna be some blood and contusions involved,(probably on both of us).
Anyone who has been around knows that size is not everything. And since when is a teenager a little kid.



Exceptions always exist, but there's a reason why boxing, wresting, weightlifting have weight divisions. And the difference in size between high school aged athletes and college age athletes (notably football) is significant.

Add a gun to the 100lb weight differential and it's a pretty uneven fight.

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Ha ha ha ha ha! Yeah,I grew up in a tough area,but back in 1977, not many folks would start a fight and then pull a gun when they were loosing.
Bottom line is,no one really knows what the facts are in this case.
Alot of folks keep bringing up the size and age of the two,and the race.
If there is hard evidence that this was not self defense,but a hate crime, then the shooter should be punished,plain and simple.
But to assume that a teenager is incapable of causing harm or even death to an adult is absurd.

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Yes,when we talk about well conditioned athletes,size is a huge factor.
But what if one individual is 250lbs of lard without any speed, agility,or real strength.
The other is lean,fast,and aggresive,with a good power to weight ratio?
The poorly condition pile of lard will most likely get his ass handed to him.
Just saying

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I suspect there's going to be quite a few people who have posted in the thread that are going to be very embarrased they ran off at the mouth before the facts of this case were known. I for on look forward to serving them crow and watching them aquirm and wriggle as they try and deny that they jumped to conclusions.

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1185672#1185672

I had this debate 8 years ago - with many in SC. Is it still true today that if you participate in an escalating dispute and then shoot someone, then you are guilty of a crime?

Sounds like Zimmerman may be in that position, given he initiated the 'pursuit' after being asked not to by 911 operators.

I am also equally sure that many Americans are perfectly Ok with shooting someone for fuck all reason - just because they feel threatened. I am saddened by the whole incident and it demonstrates a flaw in the 'stand your ground' laws. Also demonstrates a serious flaw in the American psyche.

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Why did you just now remove my last post? I'm calling BS. Just b/c your a mod doesn't make you right all the time.



I had a post vanish in another thread. It looks like dropzone.com may have a flaw.
Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1185672#1185672

I had this debate 8 years ago - with many in SC. Is it still true today that if you participate in an escalating dispute and then shoot someone, then you are guilty of a crime?

Sounds like Zimmerman may be in that position, given he initiated the 'pursuit' after being asked not to by 911 operators.

I am also equally sure that many Americans are perfectly Ok with shooting someone for fuck all reason - just because they feel threatened. I am saddened by the whole incident and it demonstrates a flaw in the 'stand your ground' laws. Also demonstrates a serious flaw in the American psyche.



One of the "points" of a claim of self defense, as taught today, is "Retreat was not practical." The "Castle Doctrine" removes this requirement (in one's home or car) and the "Stand Your Ground" law in Florida removes it in public.
These laws have been passed because there have been numerous legitimate self defense cases prosecuted because the DA decided that he didn't believe in self defense and would prosecute cases where (for example) someone shot an intruder in their home when they could have fled to safety by jumping out of a second floor window.

BUT... just because retreat is no longer required doesn't stop it from being a good idea.

And apparently, Zimmerman got out of his car and started looking for the guy. I don't know Florida law well enough to say for sure, but it would seem to me that he put himself into danger by doing that. That makes the claim of self defense a lot harder to substantiate.

And while I am not "many Americans" and I am a firm believer in the right to keep and bear arms and the principle of self defense, I don't believe it is perfectly Ok to shoot someone for "fuck all reason."

Deadly force is legal to use only in response to the reasonable belief that one is in danger of death or great bodily injury.

And given the shitstorm of legal repercussions following a defensive gun use, pulling that trigger (or even pulling out a gun) is something I would really, really rather not have to do.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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I am also equally sure that many Americans are perfectly Ok with shooting someone for fuck all reason - just because they feel threatened.



Your surety doesn't make it fact. If Zimmerman intended to shoot Martin 'for fuck all reason', then *WHY* the fuck did he call the cops beforehand? Sorta stupid to have the people responsible for investigating murders on the way to your location before you commit the crime, don't you think?

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I am saddened by the whole incident and it demonstrates a flaw in the 'stand your ground' laws.



If what some witnesses are saying is true, and Martin had Zimmerman down on the ground, then he certainly couldn't retreat any further, could he? Why do you think it is better that the criminal (in a generic sense) gets a free pass to commit violence?

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Also demonstrates a serious flaw in the American psyche.



Only because you've already made up your mind to think so based on your own false preconceptions.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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At the back of his mind of course would be the belief that because the kid was black the police wouldn't care and wouldn't do anything if he did shoot. This proved to be the case. Well thought out murder.



Why didn't you call the police yourself when your telepathy told you Zimmerman had decided to shoot, Kevin? Why didn't you call the FBI yourself when your telepathy told you the police were in on the deal, Kevin?

You should give up on playing the Amazing Kreskin, Kevin - it really makes you look foolish.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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He was right about the police response. Now all he's got to do is bide his time. Wait a few years and he can find another black kid to shoot because the colour of his skin 'threatens' him.



So why didn't you call the FBI when your telepathy let you know the police were in on it too, Kevin?

For that matter, if the police were in on it too, why is it going to a grand jury, Kevin?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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After hearing the 911 calls, I can conclude:
(1) The guy found the kid suspicious;
(2) The guy started following the kid;
(3) The kid was trying to get away but couldn't;
(4) The kid felt threatened, stood his ground and attacked the guy in self-defense using less than lethal force;
(5) The guy escalated to lethal force aganist a person acting in self defense.


My wife is hotter than your wife.

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Another scenario:

Zimmerman began following the kid.
They exchange words.
The kid approaches Zimmerman unaware he is armed.
They exchange more words
The kid swings and hits Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground.
The kid jumps on top of Zimmerman and begins punching him.
Zimmerman escapes and the kid comes towards him again.
Zimmerman pulls his gun and fires.

I don't know if this is what happened. It is an alternative theory just as valid as anything else that has been claimed.

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Another scenario:

Zimmerman began following the kid.
They exchange words.
The kid approaches Zimmerman unaware he is armed.
They exchange more words
The kid swings and hits Zimmerman, knocking him to the ground.
The kid jumps on top of Zimmerman and begins punching him.
Zimmerman escapes and the kid comes towards him again.
Zimmerman pulls his gun and fires.

I don't know if this is what happened. It is an alternative theory just as valid as anything else that has been claimed.



and yours may be the closest

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

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But one man's testimony could be key for the police.

"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red


"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Obama's and Holder's buddies are the real racists here

If something happens I hope they go to jail



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Wanted Dead or Alive Poster Issued for George Zimmerman by New Black Panther Party


http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11778354-wanted-dead-or-alive-poster-issued-for-george-zimmerman-by-new-black-panther-party


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Trayvon Martin case: 'Blacks are under attack,' says Jesse Jackson




http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-jesse-jackson-20120323,0,2131299.story
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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The facts will hopefully arrive at truth's doorstep.

However until then....we wait.

But what if a black Zimmerman had shot a white Tayvon?

How would the chocolate crooks* aka politicos react?
Food for thought?


*and yes I think of white politicos as crooks also....vanilla villains!

Don't go away mad....just go away!


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I know the highly emotional people on here who have already tried, convicted and sentenced Zimmerman will find even more reasons to question what really happened. I think that if we give this enough time for the truth to come out that justice will be done. Ever notice it's always the same overly emotional ones we have to constantly tell to relax and let things play out?

http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Zimmerman_Martin_shooting.pdf

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Fellow Citizens:
There has been a lot of media attention to the recent incident where George
Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin. This is indeed a tragic situation and has
caused a flood of questions and strong emotions from within our community, the region
and nation. On behalf of the employees of the City of Sanford, Our deepest sympathy
and prayers go out to the family and friends of Trayvon Martin. As a father, I can only
image the pain Trayvon’s family must be going through. The City of Sanford is
committed to insuring that justice is served and, therefore, the City of Sanford has
contacted the United States Attorney General’s Office for assistance in this matter.
In an effort to continue to be as responsive as possible to the public seeking information on
the incident, I have asked Chief Lee to provide answers to some of the most frequently
asked questions regarding this matter. Below are his responses. Please understand that
since this is still an ongoing investigation, the Police Department is limited in what
information it can publicly release.
The men and women of the Sanford Police Department extend our heartfelt
sympathies to the Martin family. This is indeed a tragic situation. The death of
anyone due to violence, especially a 17 year old young man, is morally appalling. As
this incident has generated a lot of media attention, we wanted to provide answers to
some of the most frequently asked questions.
Why was George Zimmerman not arrested the night of the shooting?
When the Sanford Police Department arrived at the scene of the incident, Mr.
Zimmerman provided a statement claiming he acted in self defense which at the time
was supported by physical evidence and testimony. By Florida Statute, law
enforcement was PROHIBITED from making an arrest based on the facts and
circumstances they had at the time. Additionally, when any police officer makes an
arrest for any reason, the officer MUST swear and affirm that he/she is making the
arrest in good faith and with probable cause. If the arrest is done maliciously and in
bad faith, the officer and the City may be held liable.
According to Florida Statute 776.032 :
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use
of force.—
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is
justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action
for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law
enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance
of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance
with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have
known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the
term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or
prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the
use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the
person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the
force that was used was unlawful.

Why weren’t the 911 tapes initially released?
There are exemptions to the public records laws for active criminal intelligence and
for ongoing investigations. In this instance, the 911 calls made by neighbors in the
subdivision, and the non-emergency call made by Mr. Zimmerman are all key to the
investigation by Sanford Police Department. In consultation with the Office of the
State Attorney, the Sanford police department had decided not to release the audio
recordings of the 911 calls due to the ongoing investigation. Many times, specific
information is contained in those recordings which is vital to the integrity of the
investigation. At the time, it was determined that if revealed, the information may
compromise the integrity of the investigation prior to its completion. The 911 tapes
have since been released.
Why did Mr. Zimmerman have a firearm in his possession while acting in the
role of a neighborhood watch member?
Mr. Zimmerman holds a concealed weapon permit issued from the State of Florida.
He is authorized to carry the weapon in a concealed manner wherever Florida
Statute dictates. Neighborhood Watch programs are designed for members of a
neighborhood to be “eyes and ears” for police and to watch out for their neighbors.
They are not members of the Police Department nor are they vigilantes. Training
provided by law enforcement agencies to Neighborhood Watch organizations
stresses non-contact surveillance of suspicious situations and notifying police of
those situations so that law enforcement can respond and take control of the
situation.
Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by
carrying his weapon when this incident occurred. He was in fact on a personal
errand in his vehicle when he observed Mr. Martin in the community and called the
Sanford Police Department.
If Zimmerman was told not to continue to follow Trayvon, can that be
considered in this investigation?
Yes it will; however, the telecommunications call taker asked Zimmerman “are you
following him”. Zimmerman replied, “yes”. The call taker stated “you don’t need to do
that”. The call taker’s suggestion is not a lawful order that Mr. Zimmerman would be
required to follow. Zimmerman’s statement was that he had lost sight of Trayvon and
was returning to his truck to meet the police officer when he says he was attacked by
Trayvon.

Why was George Zimmerman labeled as “squeaky clean” when in fact he has
a prior arrest history?
In one of the initial meetings with the father of the victim the investigator related to
him the account that Mr. Zimmerman provided of the incident. At that time the
investigator said that Mr. Zimmerman portrayed himself to be “squeaky clean”. We
are aware of the background information regarding both individuals involved in this
event. We believe Mr. Martin may have misconstrued this information.

What about media reenactments of the shooting incident?
Any media reenactments of the shooting incident are purely speculation. To date the
Sanford Police Department has not released any rendition of the events of the
evening to anyone other than the Office of the State Attorney. The renditions we
have seen are not consistent with the evidence in this case.
The Sanford Police Department has conducted a complete and fair investigation of
this incident. We have provided the results of our investigation to the Office of the
State Attorney for their review and consideration for possible criminal prosecution.
Although the Police Department is the target of the troubling questions, let me
assure you we too feel the pain of this senseless tragedy that has dramatically
affected our community. Therefore, as we move forward and strive to answer the
questions that are a point of controversy in the community, we ask for your patience,
understanding and assistance in getting the correct information to the community
We trust that this information is helpful to you.
Norton N. Bonaparte, Jr., ICMA-CM
City Manager
March 23, 2012

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