$300,000 cars being sold for $40,000

[brenthutch 383]

And they still cant sell them!

http://news.investors.com/Article.aspx?id=603269&p=1&ibdbot=1

[jgoose71 0]

Well, you can buy the gasoline powered equivalent for $20,000. That essentially is where Chevy went wrong. If you lay down $40,000 for car, you want to feel like you are driving a $40,000 car.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[JohnRich 4]

How is the Volt different from other hybrid cars from other manufacturers that seem to be selling okay? Why is it just the Volt that is unpopular?

[billvon 2,380]

>How is the Volt different from other hybrid cars

It's a PHEV, pluggable hybrid vehicle. It plugs in to recharge the largish internal battery and also has a gasoline engine to drive it. You can go about 35 miles on the internal battery before the engine starts.

It's more expensive than an average hybrid because it has a larger battery and a charger. It adds around $20,000 to the cost of the car.

The other PHEV on the market, the Prius PHEV, has a smaller battery that gives you about 12 miles of straight electric before switching to gas. Since both the battery and the charger are smaller the additional cost is around $10,000 and the weight increase is much less.

[airdvr 197]

A Mackinac Center report says the real cost of the Volt is closer to $300,000. That includes the suggested retail price, the known $7,500 federal subsidy and another $250,000 in taxpayer-funded state and federal incentives for each car.

The Mackinac Center says analyst James Hohman arrived at that figure after looking at "18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants and tax credits" that "flow through multiple companies involved in production."

Our tax dollars at work.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

A Mackinac Center report says the real cost of the Volt is closer to $300,000. That includes the suggested retail price, the known $7,500 federal subsidy and another $250,000 in taxpayer-funded state and federal incentives for each car.

The Mackinac Center says analyst James Hohman arrived at that figure after looking at "18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants and tax credits" that "flow through multiple companies involved in production."

Our tax dollars at work.

Can you say $25B auto bailout? How much does any car 'cost' with the same analysis?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,380]

>A Mackinac Center report says the real cost of the Volt is closer to $300,000.
>That includes the suggested retail price, the known $7,500 federal subsidy . . .

I'll believe those two. (Although the cost to the consumer is the retail price MINUS the subsidy, so you can't really add them - although it is definitely a subsidy.)

>and another $250,000 in taxpayer-funded state and federal incentives for each car.

Don't buy that. That's like claiming that the price of oil is really $600 a barrel because you have to include the Gulf wars and all the environmental damage from drilling.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

A Mackinac Center report says the real cost of the Volt is closer to $300,000. That includes the suggested retail price, the known $7,500 federal subsidy...

So how does Toyoto manage to make the similar Prius in a manner that is economical enough for them to sell it cheaper than a Volt and still make a profit off of it?

[Ion01 1]

How is it toyota can make a profit and GM can't?

Its not a prius. The prius uses a gas motor to run an electric generator that moves the car. The Volt has a large battery that is charged by a electrical socket. Once that is out of juice a motor kicks in. The battery and charging technology is what makes it so much more expensive.

[Ion01 1]

Quote

>A Mackinac Center report says the real cost of the Volt is closer to $300,000.
>That includes the suggested retail price, the known $7,500 federal subsidy . . .

I'll believe those two. (Although the cost to the consumer is the retail price MINUS the subsidy, so you can't really add them - although it is definitely a subsidy.)

>and another $250,000 in taxpayer-funded state and federal incentives for each car.

Don't buy that. That's like claiming that the price of oil is really $600 a barrel because you have to include the Gulf wars and all the environmental damage from drilling.

And that would be accurate as all that is ultimately being payed for by us and if we didn't have all that involved then we would have that money in our pockets.
Its the same way a company looks at the actual cost of its product. You must factor in everything from the cost of the material to the labor, to the forklift and its gas and maintenance cost, and the insurance on the labor, etc. This is why is saves a company money to make a workplace safe or provide place for employees to exercise which ultimately lowers insurance cost for the company making their product more affordable.
This is why government intervention results in higher prices.

[eUrNiCc 0]

I drive a 2000 Honda Insight hybrid that averages about 62mpg. It's been the best car that I've ever owned from a reliability standpoint (Mine is about to turn over 300K.)
Honda had the same problem that Chevy is facing now. They spent a bunch of money engineering a fantastic car that nobody ended up buying (at only $20K) & they stopped production in 2006. The original Insight has a cult following because it can easily be modded to get 70-120mpg and nobody has come out with a car that even comes close to matching it's performance.

I think that the Volt is a pretty well engineered car, but I wouldn't buy one because they're too much of a compromise. If I'm going to drop $40K on a plug in hybrid it will be one that weighs less than 2000lb and has more than 35 miles range on electricity before starting the gas motor. If the technology in the Volt was applied to a smaller and lighter vehicle, it would easily achieve 80-100mpg AFTER using up the plug in battery capacity.
Leno got one of the first Volts and put 10,000 miles on it before he had to refill the gas tank. Given the utility afforded by the Volt (four doors, room for a gun rack, etc) I'm surprised that they aren't selling more.

Egad, A BASE life defiles a bad age.

[billvon 2,380]

>I think that the Volt is a pretty well engineered car, but I wouldn't buy one
>because they're too much of a compromise.

Agreed. I think the Prius PHEV is a much better compromise overall - 12 miles range on electric only, then reversion to a 50mpg hybrid. And since the NiMH pack was replaced by a lithium ion pack battery weight didn't increase much. And with an average US car trip length of 10 miles, and an average commute distance of 12 miles, you could see an average driver spending no money on gas during most of the year - without sacrificing range if they want to drive across the country. (And, of course, don't mind paying for the gas to do it.)

[brenthutch 383]

Quote

>I think that the Volt is a pretty well engineered car, but I wouldn't buy one
>because they're too much of a compromise.

Agreed. I think the Prius PHEV is a much better compromise overall - 12 miles range on electric only, then reversion to a 50mpg hybrid. And since the NiMH pack was replaced by a lithium ion pack battery weight didn't increase much. And with an average US car trip length of 10 miles, and an average commute distance of 12 miles, you could see an average driver spending no money on gas during most of the year - without sacrificing range if they want to drive across the country. (And, of course, don't mind paying for the gas to do it.)

It is notable that the economically viable Prius did so without economic subsidies. Government interference = economic failure.

[kallend 1,620]

Quote

Quote

>I think that the Volt is a pretty well engineered car, but I wouldn't buy one
>because they're too much of a compromise.

Agreed. I think the Prius PHEV is a much better compromise overall - 12 miles range on electric only, then reversion to a 50mpg hybrid. And since the NiMH pack was replaced by a lithium ion pack battery weight didn't increase much. And with an average US car trip length of 10 miles, and an average commute distance of 12 miles, you could see an average driver spending no money on gas during most of the year - without sacrificing range if they want to drive across the country. (And, of course, don't mind paying for the gas to do it.)

It is notable that the economically viable Prius did so without economic subsidies. Government interference = economic failure.

The Japanese government HAS provided subsidies to automakers, and has, in fact, just reintroduced subsidies.

And for years it protected its automakers with highly restrictive import restrictions and an artificially low exchange rate.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,380]

>It is notable that the economically viable Prius did so without economic subsidies.

The US subsidy for vehicles like the Prius was $2.88 billion over the past several years, and the Japanese government subsidized them to the tune of $3000 per car. These got it established. They have since ended, and as you noted, it is now economically viable.

Which is how it should be. Any incentives should exist only long enough to overcome any barriers to entry into the marketplace, rather than subsidize an overly expensive design.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

A Mackinac Center report says the real cost of the Volt is closer to $300,000. That includes the suggested retail price, the known $7,500 federal subsidy and another $250,000 in taxpayer-funded state and federal incentives for each car.

The Mackinac Center says analyst James Hohman arrived at that figure after looking at "18 government deals that included loans, rebates, grants and tax credits" that "flow through multiple companies involved in production."

Our tax dollars at work.

That is a bit light on details. I believe many (most?) of these are related to battery production technology. This investment doesn't die with the Volt. It can be used on whatever comes later. And we certainly do need to be investing in battery tech, esp if it can be battery tech that doesn't rely on rare earth minerals that primary come from China.

And the Volt, while not selling well (the misreported fires did it no favors) will still sell some units. If you've only sold 1600, there's a lot more units remaining to amortize it further.

[kallend 1,620]

Quote

>It is notable that the economically viable Prius did so without economic subsidies.

The US subsidy for vehicles like the Prius was $2.88 billion over the past several years, and the Japanese government subsidized them to the tune of $3000 per car. These got it established. They have since ended, and as you noted, it is now economically viable.

www.hybridcars.com/news/japanese-green-vehicle-subsidy-aims-help-boost-car-sales-42133.html

Subsidies reintroduced.

Anyhow, Brenthutch is mistaken.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[brenthutch 383]

Quote

Quote

>It is notable that the economically viable Prius did so without economic subsidies.

The US subsidy for vehicles like the Prius was $2.88 billion over the past several years, and the Japanese government subsidized them to the tune of $3000 per car. These got it established. They have since ended, and as you noted, it is now economically viable.

www.hybridcars.com/news/japanese-green-vehicle-subsidy-aims-help-boost-car-sales-42133.html

Subsidies reintroduced.

Anyhow, Brenthutch is mistaken.

Prius sales are cratering as well.

Here is a primer on the Prius

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s10e02-smug-alert

[billvon 2,380]

>It is notable that the economically viable Prius did so without economic subsidies.

>Prius sales are cratering as well.

That's a flip flop worthy of RushMC himself!

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Prius sales are cratering as well.

Sales of all such hybrid economy cars were declining starting back in 2007:
http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/07/graph38.png

But when I google "Prius sales" I now get lots of news stories to the contrary. They sell about 29,000 per month, more than all the the Volts total. And with gas prices rising, the Prius is gaining in popularity.

Sample story, Business Week: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-03-01/toyota-beats-sales-estimates-prius-rises

[airdvr 197]

Volt is a prime example of what happens when governments start picking the winners and losers. What they failed to take into account is the market that didn't really want an all-electric car for $40,000. To influence the market look for higher gas prices on the way.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 2,380]

>Volt is a prime example of what happens when governments start picking the
>winners and losers. What they failed to take into account is the market that didn't
>really want an all-electric car for $40,000.

The Volt isn't an all electric car.

[lawrocket 3]

It also failed to take other issues into account. For example, the Volt is not useful to anybody who lives in an apartment or parks outside of a house garage. How about a person who works 15 miles away but parks in an outdoor lot or parking structure – as do most people who drive to work

Seriously – consider anybody who would have to plug in a car who doesn’t have their own garage to do it. You’ll find Priuses in apartments, etc. But you’ll not find anybody willing to plug in a car who doesn’t have ready access to a plug. You’ve got millions of car owners living in apartments who can’t plug in cars. You have millions of people who drive to work and can’t recharge at work because they park in lots.

Then consider what takes the charge of the car down and lowers mileage. Much of the world gets pretty cold in the winter. Bill – I know from personal experience starting cars that cold weather deteriorates battery performance. I could imagine a temperature in the teens lowering battery performance dramatically. Want heat? That takes juice from a battery that might only give you 2/3 of the expected performance that would be expected on an 80 degree day. Cold weather is a double whammy on the battery.

Where I live hits 100 degrees at least thirty days a year. Vehicle air conditioning to me isn’t a luxury so much as it is a life support system from late spring to early autumn. Now I reckon that one can turn on AC with the car still plugged in to get the cabin down to survivable temperature in the summer before departing but isn’t that assuming I have a plug? At work I don’t.

Plug in cars are extremely useful to a small percentage of the population. Other than the small percentage of people with short commutes in moderate weather with easy charging ability at home and away, the marginal cost exceeds the marginal utility.

It’s just not a vehicle that makes sense for the vast majority of the population.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,380]

>It also failed to take other issues into account. For example, the Volt is not useful
>to anybody who lives in an apartment or parks outside of a house garage.

That's actually where a Volt is far more useful than a Leaf. If you end up in an apartment with no outlet near your parking spot - the Volt still works fine, it just burns gas. With a Leaf unless you can charge somewhere else you're out of luck.

>You have millions of people who drive to work and can’t recharge at work because
>they park in lots.

We park in lots here and there are now dozens of places you can charge (in the lot.) 15 or so dedicated chargers and 30 or so plain old outlets. Fortunately outlets are cheap.

>Cold weather is a double whammy on the battery.

The Leaf and the Tesla both have battery heaters. IC engine cars (like the Prius PHEV, the Volt) use their IC engines for heat when needed.

>Other than the small percentage of people with short commutes in moderate
>weather with easy charging ability at home and away, the marginal cost exceeds the
>marginal utility.

The average car trip in the US is 10 miles; the average commute is 13 miles. A car like the Leaf would cover all of that. A car like a Volt or a Prius PHEV will cover that and will never have a problem with range, finding an outlet or weather.

So far I've lived in about a dozen places -
Home in NY (2 houses)
Dorm in college
Shared house in NY
Apartment in Sacramento
Rented house in San Diego
Apartment in San Diego
Van
Apartment in San Diego
Rented house in San Diego
House in San Diego
House in San Diego

Of those, the only time I did not have access to an outlet where I parked was when I was living in the apartment in Sacramento and when I lived in the van.

Pure battery vehicles (BEV's) are definitely not for everyone. But in many places they're good options, and are a good way to insulate yourself from high gas prices.

[lawrocket 3]

Oh yes. The Leaf. The Volt is nice because it’s got a backup IC engine. And for many it does offer convenience and lack of expense.

I also note my libertarian objection to part of this. Electricity costs money. But plugging in to outlets at parking lots, etc., would end up not costing the driver but end up costing someone else. Here’s something – what about lots, etc., that did not allow charging? Or, allowed people to charge their cars only for a price?

There’s a part of me that thinks that there would be a backlash against this. I mean, a person can be getting a “free ride.” (Note: “gas, grass or ass” wouldn’t work any longer. At least the “gas” part wouldn’t). But what would happen once lot owners started seeing a jump in their electric bills?

My wife is hotter than your wife.