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shah269

One day I hope to pay only '13.9% tax'

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I make << $1/2 M, and pay some 20% overall, BEFORE SS and medicare taxes.



Do I really need to quote you?

"Anecdotes != data"

The average (median would be most appropriate here) household does not pay 20%. I, lacking a spouse or kids or a mortgage, also pay more.



What is the median that pays 13.9%, and how many times that median is Romney's $22M?
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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How would you accurately measure and price this?



That's not my problem. The problem I have is investment income is treated differently. Forget the fact it's a hard number that can be written down on a piece of paper. The fact remains that if I invest my labor and it doesn't pan out I have to eat the loss, but if I invest money and it doesn't pan out I can get a tax break to help bail me out. On top of it, any money earned through my labor is taxed at full rates, but any investment income is taxed at most 15%.

It just doesn't make sense.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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How would you accurately measure and price this?



That's not my problem. The problem I have is investment income is treated differently. Forget the fact it's a hard number that can be written down on a piece of paper. The fact remains that if I invest my labor and it doesn't pan out I have to eat the loss, but if I invest money and it doesn't pan out I can get a tax break to help bail me out. On top of it, any money earned through my labor is taxed at full rates, but any investment income is taxed at most 15%.

It just doesn't make sense.



it makes sense for the exact reason I posed the question.

Without naming names - the time of some people on this forum is very valuable. And the time of others is absolutely worthless. So how much should the deduction be?

You want a deduction for opportunity cost, not time, but you have no way to evaluate it. Is it division of last 3 years' tax return divided by 2080 to get an hourly figure? If so, then people like Romney will enter in their time and pay nothing at all. It would be a ridiculous tax loophole, far worse than the way lawyers pad their billable hours.

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>If we're going down that road, then why can't I write off my income losses
>for the amount of time I spend working on a project that doesn't go through?

You can. Form a company, pay yourself a salary, and have that be a liability. At the end of the year you pay taxes on your profits, which might indeed be zero if your salary exceeded your income.

>If you want to make a comparison, then I think the proper one would be income
>gained through labor versus income gained through investment.

Well, you'd have to make that specific to "salary" then since labor covers a pretty wide range of payments (as in your example.)

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In another thread we talked about "what is fair."

I gave a definition that it's playing by the rules.

You and Kelp are looking for loopholes. I'm looking for the rules to be fair from the outset.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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>You and Kelp are looking for loopholes. I'm looking for the rules to be fair from the outset.

But you support the progressive-tax "loophole" where the poor pay a lower percentage than the rich.

>In another thread we talked about "what is fair." I gave a definition that it's playing by the rules.

That's cool - but it also means that a lower capital gains tax is fair.

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In another thread we talked about "what is fair."

I gave a definition that it's playing by the rules.

You and Kelp are looking for loopholes. I'm looking for the rules to be fair from the outset.



I ignored the fair thread - seemed boring, silly.

In any event, you're the one looking for a loophole here to get money for your free time. Bill and I each explained means to monetize it per your tax return. But the reality is that most people do not seriously try, so I see little unfairness in the situation. Most people get a W2 job and bitch and complain about their employer, and bitch and moan about the unfair stock market when they have a perfectly good 401k vehicle.

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Do people really believe that Romney had an equal chance in life to someone born into poverty? He didn't "make" that money on his own...just being born to his parents guaranteed he would make that kind of money as long as he didn't become a heroin addict.

You must be very naive if you think you can make that kind of dough in America without a leg up from birth. It's remotely possible, but the vast majority are just born into wealth and are trained from birth on how to perpetuate that wealth.

The few and far between stories of poor people "rising to the top" are just stories the rich tell the poor to keep them quiet.

It's sad you all think that the rich are so superior to you as human beings. They're not.



No what's sad is that you'll spend that much energy whining about how someone who through no fault of their own ended up arriving in this world in a different scenario than you.

That's life. Get over it and move on.
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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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"1) We don't all have an equal opportunity to make money the way he did."

Quade I just don't get you sometimes. What about the people that didn't have the "equal opprtunity" that YOU had. Certainly you weren't raised to the very bottom of the pit. Let's tax YOU more because there are people who weren't as fortunate as you have been.

Does it only make sense when someone make a lot more than you? Are you the bench mark? No. But you seem to say they should be.

Read Bill's post about his family history. Let's tax the shit out of him to. (He prob wouldn't care)

"2) Investment income shouldn't be considered "special" money and taxed at a different rate."

You've already been hammered about this by others and I know nothing anyone says will effect your mind on it.

And I'm sorry about the BOLD, I said I was sorry when I replied to Kallend but I should have sent that to you.
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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>Why? Because you say it is?
Because you said it is:
"In another thread we talked about "what is fair." I gave a definition that it's playing by the rules."
Paying a lower capital gains tax is playing by the rules.



I'm not talking so much about the rules that get inserted into the tax code by special interest lawyers to circumvent the basic premise of tax collection, but the basic rules of life we all should have learned in kindergarten.

No short cuts, no cutting in line. William doesn't get to cut in line just because he thinks he's special.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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>Why? Because you say it is?
Because you said it is:
"In another thread we talked about "what is fair." I gave a definition that it's playing by the rules."
Paying a lower capital gains tax is playing by the rules.



I'm not talking so much about the rules that get inserted into the tax code by special interest lawyers to circumvent the basic premise of tax collection, but the basic rules of life we all should have learned in kindergarten.

No short cuts, no cutting in line. William doesn't get to cut in line just because he thinks he's special.



How about the basic rules of life you learn once you get OUT of kindergarten, like "life isn't fair"?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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>Why? Because you say it is?
Because you said it is:
"In another thread we talked about "what is fair." I gave a definition that it's playing by the rules."
Paying a lower capital gains tax is playing by the rules.


I'm not talking so much about the rules that get inserted into the tax code by special interest lawyers to circumvent the basic premise of tax collection, but the basic rules of life we all should have learned in kindergarten.
No short cuts, no cutting in line. William doesn't get to cut in line just because he thinks he's special.


How about the basic rules of life you learn once you get OUT of kindergarten, like "life isn't fair"?



While it may be true as a statement of fact, if "life isn't fair" is your basic operating philosophy, then I don't really want to even know you, because it means you can justify virtually any criminal act you choose and dismiss it just by invoking it.

Sure, it sounds like it comes from a worldly and wise tough guy, but it's a bullshit philosophy to live by for humanity.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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> . . . but the basic rules of life we all should have learned in kindergarten.

>No short cuts, no cutting in line. William doesn't get to cut in line just because he thinks
>he's special.

Then why does William get to cut in line if he doesn't make as much as Paul? Do we give the poor kids in schools easier tests to "even things out?"

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Then why does William get to cut in line if he doesn't make as much as Paul?


He shouldn't, that's my point.

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Do we give the poor kids in schools easier tests to "even things out?"


Nope. Again, that's my point.

Why is investment income "special?"
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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>>Do we give the poor kids in schools easier tests to "even things out?"
>Nope.
Then why does he? Why do the "poor kids" have to pay almost nothing in income taxes on what they earn but the "rich kids" have to pay 30% or so?



Hey, I'm not opposed to a properly calculated flat tax. Let's just make sure we apply it to everything equally. Right now that's absolutely not the case between income earned through labor versus income earned thought investments.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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While it may be true as a statement of fact, if "life isn't fair" is your basic operating philosophy, then I don't really want to even know you, because it means you can justify virtually any criminal act you choose and dismiss it just by invoking it.



And playing the 'it's not fair' game lets you do the same thing - quit trying to pretend it's any different.

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Sure, it sounds like it comes from a worldly and wise tough guy, but it's a bullshit philosophy to live by for humanity.



And just *WHERE* did I claim it was a philosophy for humanity, pray tell? Maybe you should stick to playing the ball instead of the player, Mr. Moderator.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Then why does William get to cut in line if he doesn't make as much as Paul?


He shouldn't, that's my point.

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Do we give the poor kids in schools easier tests to "even things out?"


Nope. Again, that's my point.

Why is investment income "special?"



It's no more special for William than it is for Paul...or equally special, if you prefer.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Sure, it sounds like it comes from a worldly and wise tough guy, but it's a bullshit philosophy to live by for humanity.


And just *WHERE* did I claim it was a philosophy for humanity, pray tell? Maybe you should stick to playing the ball instead of the player, Mr. Moderator.



Do not flatter yourself. I apologize if you thought I was, but make no mistake, I do not see you as "worldly and wise."
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Hey, I'm not opposed to a properly calculated flat tax. Let's just make sure we apply it to everything equally. Right now that's absolutely not the case between income earned through labor versus income earned thought investments.



Ok - so William and Paul both need to pay "x" percent of their total earnings. No poverty level adjustments, no back claims against losses, just 'send fed.gov "x" percent'.

After all, anything else wouldn't be 'fair', now would it?
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Sure, it sounds like it comes from a worldly and wise tough guy, but it's a bullshit philosophy to live by for humanity.



And just *WHERE* did I claim it was a philosophy for humanity, pray tell? Maybe you should stick to playing the ball instead of the player, Mr. Moderator.



Do not flatter yourself. I wasn't talking about you. I do not see you as "worldly and wise."



Nice PA, Mr. Person who's SUPPOSED to enforce the rules.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Sure, it sounds like it comes from a worldly and wise tough guy, but it's a bullshit philosophy to live by for humanity.


And just *WHERE* did I claim it was a philosophy for humanity, pray tell? Maybe you should stick to playing the ball instead of the player, Mr. Moderator.


Do not flatter yourself. I wasn't talking about you. I do not see you as "worldly and wise."


Nice PA, Mr. Person who's SUPPOSED to enforce the rules.



Hey man, if you're going to make assumptions about my posts and attack me for them, well . . . you leave me no option but to point out the realities of my words.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Sure, it sounds like it comes from a worldly and wise tough guy, but it's a bullshit philosophy to live by for humanity.


And just *WHERE* did I claim it was a philosophy for humanity, pray tell? Maybe you should stick to playing the ball instead of the player, Mr. Moderator.


Do not flatter yourself. I wasn't talking about you. I do not see you as "worldly and wise."


Nice PA, Mr. Person who's SUPPOSED to enforce the rules.



Hey man, if you're going to make assumptions about my posts and attack me for them, well . . . you leave me no option but to point out the realities of my words.



You made direct mention of me instead of making it a general statement - "I don't really want to know you" instead of "I don't really want to know a person like that".

I wouldn't expect someone who is supposedly a wordsmith to make elementary mistakes like that.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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