Concealed Carry Handgun?

[DougH 270]

Care to share the link to the tests?

It doesn't pass the FBI tests for penetration. It isn't a great round.

Sure it is better than nothing but you can get 9mm's that are only slightly large than most 380 pocket pistols.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[winsor 234]

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Ruger LCP

Strongly disagree. Rugers LCP, or Little Copy Pistol, because it is a rip off of a KelTec 380 design, may be fun to target shoot but the 380 round sucks for self defense.

I don't want to get shot by any gun, but if I had to chose I would rather be shot by a 380 than a 45!!!

At the minimum I would go with a 9mm, and the heaviest 9mm self defense round that you gun will shoot reliably and that you shoot accurately.

Go heavy.

[steve1 5]

I used to carry my little 22 (nine shot) Taurus, when I was hunting. It worked well for finishing off an animal or the occaisional grouse. I love that gun. It's accurate enough to shoot a grouse in the head, if you are close enough. But even as small and lightweight as it is, it got to be a pain to carry. I usually leave it at home now.

I tried a belt holster for a while. One day it fell out in the snow when I bent over to build a fire. The snap came loose....I almost lost it. I don't like a lot of weight on my belt. I usually have a knife, extra ammo, and the additional pistol was too much, when hunting.

So, I went to a shoulder holster. It's still a pain to carry, even with that.

So, a full size 1911 may not be the right gun for me. I'll try out some of those smaller Glocks.

A gun left at home, won't help you when you need it...

I hate a snubby, that won't shoot well, beyond five feet. Accuracy my be a tradeoff for portability. I'll have to try out some weapons.

Thanks for all the imput on this. I am learning a lot...

[airtwardo 7]

A KelTec .32 is puny, but it is very reliable with self-defense loads. It is simple to use, and easy to carry when dressed for jogging.

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Even better...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[devildog 0]

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Care to share the link to the tests?

It doesn't pass the FBI tests for penetration. It isn't a great round.

Sure it is better than nothing but you can get 9mm's that are only slightly large than most 380 pocket pistols.

None immediately bookmarked, but I found these on google which is about what I remember:

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm

FBI requires 12" min to be adequate, note the Cor Bon JHP 90g came in at 13.3" and the Fiocchi XTPHP 90gr at 13.6". Even some of the older tests on older ammo came in at 9-10". This guy got 10.75-11.75 on Gold Dots from 4 years ago:

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14504



The .380 performance isn't jaw dropping for sure, but they aren't harmless rounds either. IMHO the .380 has its place.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[steve1 5]

They found that woman jogger. The only detail I heard for sure, was that she's dead....probably raped. I hope they get the scum-bags that did it.

[PiLFy 0]

Hi Steve,
I skimmed through the thread, & didn't see the following choices mentioned, specifically. Both would be great for your wife to carry while jogging:

http://www.glock.com/english/glock36.htm

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9.asp

I've never tried that Glock. but the Kahr is very accurate & controllable. You can carry it while wearing almost nothing. The only thing, is the slide tends to skin the inside of your thumb knuckle (@web) during cycling. So, wear a thin glove at the range.

I read about that poor teacher. W/animals like that on the loose. How about buying a nice treadmill while you're at it?

[gher 0]

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Hi Steve,
I skimmed through the thread, & didn't see the following choices mentioned, specifically. Both would be great for your wife to carry while jogging:

http://www.glock.com/english/glock36.htm

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9.asp

I've never tried that Glock. but the Kahr is very accurate & controllable. You can carry it while wearing almost nothing. The only thing, is the slide tends to skin the inside of your thumb knuckle (@web) during cycling. So, wear a thin glove at the range.

I read about that poor teacher. W/animals like that on the loose. How about buying a nice treadmill while you're at it?

I have that Glock. I barely notice it, and have never gotten slide bite once...

I highly recommend it.

[PiLFy 0]

Excellent choice, Heywood.

Hmmm, Jablowme(?)...Jablowme(?)...
Is that Polish???

[steve1 5]

I guess the authorities have two guys in custody. The FBI is involved. The body has still not been recovered. The papers say she is dead though. Supposedly they buried the body somewhere. I don't know how they did that since the ground is frozen here. The radio is saying to look somewhere near trees. So, their only charge now is aggravated kidnapping.

One guy is 47 and the other 22. Both are from Colorado.

I've always been against waterboarding. I kind of wish they could use that on these two. I'd bet they'd know exactly where the body was hidden, within an hour of that.

This lady was a respected teacher in Sydney. She was loved by all.

We have one small hardware store in our town. It is now sold completely out of hand guns.

There was another woman near Forsyth, who pulled over along the road, a few days ago. Another truck stopped. She probably assumed it was somebody to help.

This Scumbag had a knife. He ordered her to get in his truck. She said, just a minute, I need to grab my cigarettes. She reached in her vehicle and pulled out a pistol. The guy got in his truck and he left. Too bad she didn't shoot....

My wife is jogging inside a school now. She still runs from our house to the school. She ordered some pepper spray off the internet recently. I keep telling her that may not be enough....

The Baken oil field is changing things here. Another year, and we're moving out....

[steve1 5]

I like the looks of both those pistols. I think I'll get something similiar to those. I wonder what the price is on that Glock? I might go with 9 mm. I already have dies and reloading stuff for that. The wife would probably shoot it better too.

I still like the looks of those 45 kimbers. I imagine that would be $1,000 or more. Maybe someday. I may have to be happy with my little 9mm S&W, till that day arrives.

I talked with one old guy who packs a 45 auto, everywhere he goes back in the Bob Marshal. He works as a guide and cook.

One day he went in on horse back to pack out an elk. He spotted another bull elk laying in it's bed under a fir tree. He stalked up to within twenty yards and shot it in the head. He says his 1911 45 is super accurate.

He also killed a black bear with it. He said it did require a 2nd shot. I'm not sure where he hit it with the first one.

I killed a deer once with a 357. I was disappointed with the bullet that day. It was a long shot. This mule deer was going up a steep hill. I put the front sight above his head, to allow for drop at that range. The hollow point bullet blew up on the spine, and didn't penetrate the lungs. I finally finished it off. I guess that's what happens when you take long shots.

At any rate, the right bullet is important. You want one that will mushroom. But you don't want one that will fragment on bone....or something else....before the bullet enters the vitals.

I've been loading and buying hollow points for my 9mm. I think they are 115 grains (if I remember right). It's been a while since I've even shot that pistol. I need to get out and practice.

[verticalflier 0]

Also Beretta just came out with new tiny 9mm NANO. I just bought one for my wife. it is small but very well balanced. Great for concealed. Takes 6+1 rounds

[winsor 234]

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Also Beretta just came out with new tiny 9mm NANO. I just bought one for my wife. it is small but very well balanced. Great for concealed. Takes 6+1 rounds

I have a .40 Firestar, which, thought small, is hefty due to its steel contstruction. With full-patch loads, its weight is an asset.

Some time back, someone from New Jersey asked what kind of gun she should carry for self protection. I recommended a can of Easy Off.

"Have you seen a young man without a face running by here? He dropped his knife."

If the issue comes up:

"Why were you carrying a can of oven cleaner?"

"I'm a sloppy cook, and my oven really needed cleaning. When that youngster pulled a knife on me, I panicked and sprayed him."

In addition to being legal to carry, it does not make your ears ring if you use it without earplugs.


BSBD,

Winsor

[PiLFy 0]

1911 .45s are great to shoot. They're horrible for concealed carry. I generally don't like 9mm. That Kahr is really nice because it conceals so easily. I can also hit whatever I aim at w/it. It came out before that particular Glock did. I'm hopeless terrible w/most snubbies. That Glock .45 ACP is probably very easy to shoot. They do their homework on aligning the bore axis to minimize felt recoil. I've just never gotten around to trying one.

Good Luck w/whichever you choose. I'm sorry you've had bad people invading your nice area. May it pass quickly. BTW, stay away from the Glock .45GAP(?) guns. They came up w/their own proprietary .45 caliber a while back. It's ballistics do no better than match a .40 S&W.

[mnealtx 0]

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1911 .45s are great to shoot. They're horrible for concealed carry. I generally don't like 9mm. That Kahr is really nice because it conceals so easily. I can also hit whatever I aim at w/it. It came out before that particular Glock did. I'm hopeless terrible w/most snubbies. That Glock .45 ACP is probably very easy to shoot. They do their homework on aligning the bore axis to minimize felt recoil. I've just never gotten around to trying one.

Good Luck w/whichever you choose. I'm sorry you've had bad people invading your nice area. May it pass quickly. BTW, stay away from the Glock .45GAP(?) guns. They came up w/their own proprietary .45 caliber a while back. It's ballistics do no better than match a .40 S&W.

1911's are nice for carry because they're thin. They suck for carry because they're *heavy*. An empty 1911 weighs as much as most polymer guns do, loaded.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Andy9o8 2]

There's a trail near me that I often run. It's very secluded. I frequently see women on it jogging solo, even at dusk. The way they're often dressed in form-hugging shorts and short-length top, anyone can tell that they're not armed. I'm sorry life is unequal and thus unfair, but I think those women are making a dangerous mistake. If my wife or daughters did that, I'd shit a brick. Get your wife that gun.

[mnealtx 0]

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There's a trail near me that I often run. It's very secluded. I frequently see women on it jogging solo, even at dusk. The way they're often dressed in form-hugging shorts and short-length top, anyone can tell that they're not armed. I'm sorry life is unequal and thus unfair, but I think those women are making a dangerous mistake. If my wife or daughters did that, I'd shit a brick. Get your wife that gun.

+++

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[steve1 5]

I really like the looks and sounds of the Glock-19 GEN 4 in 9 mm. They have a small grip with a new type of rough texture on the grips. They hold a fair number of rounds, and are supposed to be very accurate, and easy to shoot. It may be a little big to take jogging or for the wife, but I may buy one for myself.

Someone mentioned there were some extraction problems with this gun. I was wondering what you think?

[mnealtx 0]

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I really like the looks and sounds of the Glock-19 GEN 4 gun in 9 mm. They have a small grip with a new type of rough texture. They hold a fair number of rounds, and are supposed to be very accurate, and easy to shoot. It may be a little big to take jogging or for the wife, but I may buy one for myself.

Someone mentioned there were some extraction problems with this gun. I was wondering what you think?

There *have* been some issues with the gen 4. With that said, not all Gen 4s are affected. You should do a good reliability check on any pistol that you're going to carry - at an *absolute* minimum, you should be able to go 200 rounds with NO stoppages with carry ammo and I know people who recommend 500 rounds. Note, you don't clean/re-lube the gun during the test - a gun that won't fire dirty (within reason) is relegated to target use only until the issues are fixed.

As for the wife... let her try various models and see what fits her and what she shoots best and then figure out how to dress around it for running and whatnot.

She may want to read Kathy Jackson's "Cornered Cat" website (I think she has a book, as well) - there's a lot of good info in there for women that are contemplating armed self-defense.

And please, PLEASE don't automatically think that she has to have a snubby revolver or tiny auto - some further thoughts from Kathy and other ladies, here.

Regarding carry - there's two things that compromise concealment. Thickness of the gun (creates bulk at the beltline) and the grip (tends to stick out away from the body when you bend over or if you have a cheap holster).

So, all else being equal, a thinner pistol will conceal easier than a thicker pistol or a revolver (width of cylinder). A short-gripped pistol will conceal easier than a long-gripped pistol.

If you're going to carry, you *need* a good holster and belt. A $20 Uncle Mike's holster might be ok for plinking at the range, but it's not a good choice for concealment.

Buy quality defensive ammo. For forensics purposes, it's recommended to *NOT* carry reloads (your own or anyone else's).

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JohnRich 4]

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Buy quality defensive ammo. For forensics purposes, it's recommended to *NOT* carry reloads (your own or anyone else's).

I've heard people argue against reloads under the premise that they are less reliable than factory ammo. But what are the forensic reasons for this to which you allude?

[airtwardo 7]

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Buy quality defensive ammo. For forensics purposes, it's recommended to *NOT* carry reloads (your own or anyone else's).

I've heard people argue against reloads under the premise that they are less reliable than factory ammo. But what are the forensic reasons for this to which you allude?

In court they tend to make the reloader out as a mad scientist making 'special' ammo...

It's always best just to say 'it's what the guy at the hardware store sold me'

Just like it reads better in the report to state that the person shooting was only doing so to 'stop' an attack, never 'shoot to kill'.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mnealtx 0]

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Buy quality defensive ammo. For forensics purposes, it's recommended to *NOT* carry reloads (your own or anyone else's).

I've heard people argue against reloads under the premise that they are less reliable than factory ammo. But what are the forensic reasons for this to which you allude?

Think gunshot residue testing (valuable for determining the range at which a shot was fired), velocity testing, etc. With factory ammo, you have the rest of the box (or other ammo from the same manufacturing lot) that can used for said testing. With reloads, it's harder to prove that all the rounds are the same, and the rounds in the gun are evidence so you can't even pull one to show that they *are* the same.

And, it's a lot harder for the defense attorney to paint you as a blood-crazed vigilante when you're carrying the same ammunition as the police do.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rwieder 0]

Consider carrying a. Sig Saur 40 Cal. Purchaser a Fobus ccholder, oh, make sure you buy one with a lock-down. When you. Purchase the. Sig Saurian, get the Equinox.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[steve1 5]

I read a bunch of reviews on that Glock 19, Gen 4. It sounds like the problem with ejection may be too stiff of a recoil spring. It would shoot well with high power loads, but sometimes fail with low power loads.

One guy said the stiffer spring helped slightly with recoil, and he liked it since he only planned to shoot hi-power ammo.

Then a new spring came out, to solve the ejection problem.

One review was by a 1911 fan, who also worked as a policeman. He said he hated Glocks, because his double stack, service revolver, felt like he was trying to hold onto a large balony sausage. He tried the model 19, and loved it. He even retired his old 1911....I'll have to try one out.

I read most of that Kathy Jackson article. There's some good info. there.

Maybe the wife will like that Glock 19 too. She's been shooting ever since I married her thirty years ago.

One day, many years ago, I came home, and there was the wife with a neighbor lady. There on the kitchen table, lay a couple of hunting rifles, and a couple of pistols. Over coffee they were talking guns. The wife was showing her friend the guns she shot.

Early one morning, I helped the wife get her rifle, ammo, and hunting stuff ready. She was going hunting with her new friend. I had to stay home and take care of the kids.

Women are not only social animals, but they are tough. I remember lots of hunts when I felt like complaining, but the wife was still hanging in there. I have no doubt that she could handle a bigger pistol.

I haven't done a ton of reloading for pistols. It seems like it takes too much time, when I can often buy 9 mm ammo reasonably. My reloads do seem to cycle just fine through my gun....but I haven't really tested it with much ammo. It makes sense to only use hi-power, factory, defense loads, for self defense.

There aren't many scantily clad joggers around here, during the winter. This morning it was ten below, when I came to work. I know cold is a big factor with automatics. I imagine that if an automatic will shoot well dirty, it will probably work okay in cold weather. I don't use any oil on the working areas of my hunting rifles. Even a bolt action rifle, will freeze up, in really cold weather, if you aren't careful....

[mnealtx 0]

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I read a bunch of reviews on that Glock 19, Gen 4. It sounds like the problem with ejection may be too stiff of a recoil spring. It would shoot well with high power loads, but sometimes fail with low power loads.

One guy said the stiffer spring helped slightly with recoil, and he liked it since he only planned to shoot hi-power ammo.

Then a new spring came out, to solve the ejection problem.

One review was by a 1911 fan, who also worked as a policeman. He said he hated Glocks, because his double stack, service revolver, felt like he was trying to hold onto a large balony sausage. He tried the model 19, and loved it. He even retired his old 1911....I'll have to try one out.

I read most of that Kathy Jackson article. There's some good info. there.

Maybe the wife will like that Glock 19 too. She's been shooting ever since I married her thirty years ago.

One day, many years ago, I came home, and there was the wife with a neighbor lady. There on the kitchen table, lay a couple of hunting rifles, and a couple of pistols. Over coffee they were talking guns. The wife was showing her friend the guns she shot.

Early one morning, I helped the wife get her rifle, ammo, and hunting stuff ready. She was going hunting with her new friend. I had to stay home and take care of the kids.

Women are not only social animals, but they are tough. I remember lots of hunts when I felt like complaining, but the wife was still hanging in there. I have no doubt that she could handle a bigger pistol.

I haven't done a ton of reloading for pistols. It seems like it takes too much time, when I can often buy 9 mm ammo reasonably. My reloads do seem to cycle just fine through my gun....but I haven't really tested it with much ammo. It makes sense to only use hi-power, factory, defense loads, for self defense.

There aren't many scantily clad joggers around here, during the winter. This morning it was ten below, when I came to work. I know cold is a big factor with automatics. I imagine that if an automatic will shoot well dirty, it will probably work okay in cold weather. I don't use any oil on the working areas of my hunting rifles. Even a bolt action rifle, will freeze up, in really cold weather, if you aren't careful....

*IF* you get the Glock, do *NOT* use lead reloads in them. Due to the design of the rifling, lead can build up and cause an overpressure.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706