NDAA 2012

[Andy9o8 0]

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those kind of folks

Yeah. You know, the world is much more than just allies and enemies, John. Which do you think is more productive: debating over which policies are good and which are bad, or posturing over which side are the biggest assholes?

OK, let's see how this suggestion flies: Those that despair of the level of debate should set their own example to raise it.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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those kind of folks

Yeah. You know, the world is much more than just allies and enemies, John. Which do you think is more productive: debating over which policies are good and which are bad, or posturing over which side are the biggest assholes?

OK, let's see how this suggestion flies: Those that despair of the level of debate should set their own example to raise it.

I don't think either is productive.

[JohnRich 4]

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those kind of folks

Yeah. You know, the world is much more than just allies and enemies, John.

No kidding. The context in which I used the phrase "these folks" in message #22 was not an "us versus them" comparison. "These folks" was a specific subset of people who exhibit differing behaviour based upon what party is in power. I didn't claim that all democrats are hypocrites, or all liberals, or all anything. Just that specific subset. And yes, both sides share some of their group in this subset. But since the subject here is the NDAA and it was signed by a democrat president, it's that subset which is on the hot seat for being hypocrites, after their behavior against similar legislation by republican president Bush.

[Andy9o8 0]

Your point may have some traction re: Congressional Democrats, who've been pretty quiet about this so far. But, that dynamic is pretty typical of any president's Congressional party-mates, even on ideological "articles of faith", in election years. But pointing out that partisan office-holders wheel and deal is like pointing out that dogs bark. Yeah, that's what they do.

As for liberal and moderate-Democratic NON-office holders, though, they're all over it. The ACLU, other similarly-inclined advocacy groups, opinion pieces by many liberal and moderate writers and pundits, bloggers (including that guy in post #8), etc. are pretty vocal in their criticism of the NDAA generally, and of Obama for signing it.

[rushmc 18]

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Your point may have some traction re: Congressional Democrats, who've been pretty quiet about this so far. But, that dynamic is pretty typical of any president's Congressional party-mates, even on ideological "articles of faith", in election years. But pointing out that partisan office-holders wheel and deal is like pointing out that dogs bark. Yeah, that's what they do.

As for liberal and moderate-Democratic NON-office holders, though, they're all over it. The ACLU, other similarly-inclined advocacy groups, opinion pieces by many liberal and moderate writers and pundits, bloggers (including that guy in post #8), etc. are pretty vocal in their criticism of the NDAA generally, and of Obama for signing it.

I think for the most part, you are right on here

One difference exists however

That difference is the demeanor in which the main media outlets handle and report it

Obama is in office so it is just brought up
A republican if office would have brought about wailing and gnashing of the teeth for a week
Just think back to the patriot act
And this is much much worse than the patriot act

(and of course BOTH were created to give gov more power IMO)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JohnRich 4]

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The context in which I used the phrase "these folks" in message #22 was not an "us versus them" comparison. "These folks" was a specific subset of people who exhibit differing behaviour based upon what party is in power. I didn't claim that all democrats are hypocrites, or all liberals, or all anything. Just that specific subset. And yes, both sides share some of their group in this subset. But since the subject here is the NDAA and it was signed by a democrat president, it's that subset which is on the hot seat for being hypocrites, after their behavior against similar legislation by republican president Bush.

Here's the leader of this subset in action:

News:

Obama Embraces Signing Statements After Knocking Bush for Using Them

"As a candidate in 2008, Barack Obama promised that if he was elected president he would not issue obscure declarations known as signing statements that thwart the intent of laws passed by Congress. But as the president now seeking reelection in 2012, on at least 20 occasions Obama has embraced the same tactic he criticized George W. Bush for using, raising allegations of double-dealing in Congress and questions of constitutionality from the American Bar Association..."

Full story: Daily Beast