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bodypilot90

Chevy volt real cost 250k to tax payers

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The Volt averages at around 35-38 mpg running on its gas engine just as a generator on long road trips in mountain mode where is generates more power than the electrics need and actually recharges some of the battery. When you figure in the first 100 miles were at 0 gas cost that can really screw with your mileage computations. If you drive 150 miles you only used 2 gallons so you averaged 75 mpg at 80 mph...

Look at the daily driving habits of people and if their average is less than 100 miles they can go with minimal gas usage. With Electric costing around $.068 per KwH here it and the batteries only hold 16KwH of power I would be looking at $1.08 in charging cost per day of full recharge. Of course most days would be less than that. So for around $35 a month I could travel 3000 miles. I'd love to see your 1.8T get that range on $35 worth of fuel :ph34r:

Performance is not going to set any track times but this car is more targeted at people in the suburbs looking to reduce their gas bills when they only make short drives.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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even if all we burned was dirty coal, is far more efficient that the millions of gasoline engines that are out there.


Big ears is trying to kill coal if that's gone what will you use?
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I guess you missed the electrical engineering class - I did not.





when we are printing money or begging from china for 40 cents of every buck the gov't spends I don't think we should be printing money for Obama motors. I guess you missed that economics class. Maybe you missed the history class about the Wiemar Republic.

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>Central PA, where coal is abundant.

In that case your mix is likely something like:

Coal 54%
Nuclear 35%
Oil 5%
Methane 4%
Renewables 2%

>BTW my natural gas bill was $12 last month.

My utility bill was $5 last month.



As Dave pointed out earlier, It was going to take his friend 12.5 years to pay off his solar power system in AZ. With power prices what they are in SoCal, how long is it going to take you to earn back your investment?

Also, if you bought an electric car, how much faster would you be able to earn that money back with incorporated fuel savings?

Just curious if you figured it out. :)
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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>As Dave pointed out earlier, It was going to take his friend 12.5 years to pay off his
>solar power system in AZ. With power prices what they are in SoCal, how long is it
>going to take you to earn back your investment?

About the same amount of time. (System was lower cost, insolation is less, so they roughly balance out.)

>Also, if you bought an electric car, how much faster would you be able to earn that
>money back with incorporated fuel savings?

Good question. A lot of it depends on what the "alternative" price would be if you are buying (say) a Leaf. Compared to, for example, a standard Honda Civic you'd probably never pay it back. Compared to a BMW 3 series you're ahead from day 1.

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Big ears is trying to kill coal if that's gone what will you use?



No he's not - and that's an ridiculous exaggeration. Govt (driven by public opinion) is simply trying to make it cleaner, which is not a bad thing. There are hundreds of years of coal reserves left, and only a hundred or so years of oil.

Someday yes it will all be gone, but i am not under any delusion that somehow we can do without oil and/or coal.

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when we are printing money or begging from china for 40 cents of every buck the gov't spends I don't think we should be printing money for Obama motors. I guess you missed that economics class. Maybe you missed the history class about the Wiemar Republic.



again a ridiculous to-the-extreme exaggeration of what is really going on. There are trillions of dollars in reasons as to why the country has a deficit, and it is not because of the Chevy Volt.

The arguments about taxation and defictis, wars and wasteful govt spending have alreayd been made in dozens of other threads for and against, maybe you should re-read those, as i am not interested in arguing it here.

Bottom line. Coal generated electricity to push electric cars around the country is MANY TIMES more efficient use of energy than burning gasoline in cars in tiny cylinders. Investing in it is wise for the country. It makes maximum use of coal which we have lots of, and extends our supply of oil out perhaps another hundred years.

We will burn more coal and we will burn FAR LESS oil

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Nine out of the ten largest oil fields on Planet Earth reached 'peak oil' (50% or better of the oil taken out) decades ago.



You obviously have never heard of Alberta. If you knew anything about your neighbor, your would know Alberta has the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world and at today's production levels, there is enough oil here to last well over 100 years (some estimates put it at 170 years, but let's call it an even century to be safe). Yes in 100+ years from now, oil will begin to become scarce. But we will all be long dead before this happens.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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>How is most electric power gererated in the US?

All mine comes from solar.



Be realistic, you may be lighting your house with Solar power but all the juice you use at work, all the juice used to manufacture the hybrid car you have, all the energy to manufacture the fabrics that are in your rig,...
Probably coal power.

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Are you ready to give up swooping to save the future generations? Last time I checked skydiving jump planes required oil to get their human cargo into the sky.

My point speaking about oil in Alberta (oh and Saskatchewan also has oil) wasn't about pushing this onto the backs of future generations. it was to stop this nonsense that some want to claim that the world is running out of oil. The world will have plenty of oil for the next century. But if you are ready to give up something that is dear to your heart to save the generation that will occupy this planet 100+ years from now, you can start anytime you want.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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But if you are ready to give up something that is dear to your heart to save the generation that will occupy this planet 100+ years from now, you can start anytime you want.



Lets see - we eat almost 100% sustainable products - rarely eat food that is otherwise grown/mass produced (although we admittedly do occasionally), support our local farmers, drive fuel efficient cars/motorcycles, and try to limit our travel other than necessary. We've made sure our house is energy efficient as well.

Are we perfect - no, but we try hard to have our impact on the planet be minimal.

Ultimately it costs more, sometimes a lot more, but it's worth it for our health, our planet, and our child.

What do you Steve?

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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it was to stop this nonsense that some want to claim that the world is running out of oil.



And I believe in stopping this nonsense that we shouldn't be looking at innovative ways to prevent this from even being an issue. Are there going to be failures along the way? Of course - ultimately I believe they'll be worth it.

Too often the argument I hear from people, like yourself, is that it's not worth it or we don't need it - I simply don't agree. I favor innovation.

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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>Be realistic, you may be lighting your house with Solar power but all the juice you use
>at work . . . . (Probably coal power)

Actually at work we have a 500 kilowatt solar power plant as well.

But most of our power comes from a different source. For the main campus (where my office is) we run a natural gas cogenerator. During the winter the waste heat is used for heating (although we rarely need it in San Diego.) During the summer the waste heat runs an absorption chiller to cool the campus. All year long it provides process heat (basically hot water) for our DHW and manufacturing needs.

With all the turbines running it can generate 7 megawatts, more than we need to provide power and cooling to the entire campus. During times of peak demand we can actually backfeed the grid to help SDG+E out with peak loads. Most of the time we just run the most efficient turbines to cover most of our power and cooling needs, and make up the difference (usually about 20%) from utility power. Since we not only use the electricity bout the waste heat the plant is a lot more efficient that your typical peaker. We save about $600,000 a year in power costs with it.

It will also run on JP-4 if we lose natural gas supplies, although we've never (as far as I know) needed to use backup fuel.

>all the juice used to manufacture the hybrid car you have

Since it came from Japan it was likely primarily oil and nuclear.

>all the energy to manufacture the fabrics that are in your rig,...

That likely came from oil as well. More importantly the components that make up the fabrics are oil based. And that's one of the best reasons to try to save all the oil we can - because it's too valuable as a raw material to just burn it as fast as we possibly can.

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Yes in 100+ years from now, oil will begin to become scarce. But we will all be long dead before this happens.



Yeah, it's always best to leave the worrying for future generations. Let them figure it out when we could have....right? :S


Why not? Seems to be the plan for Social Security.....:ph34r:
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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There is enough oil in Western Canada to power the entire world for the next century and Western Canada is only #2 when it comes to the known world oil reserves. The world will not be running out of oil anytime soon.



Running out? No. Getting way to expensive? Oh yes. Steve: you know as well as I do (at least you should since you are the one who brought them up) that only about 5% to 10% of the reserves in the Athabasca oil sands are economic to mine or extract in situ.

Even considering some major leaps in technologies, which haven't happened in the last 50 years really, not a lot of that oil is going to be filling your car at $2/L. Yes, there have been slow incremental improvements in the processes to make the 10 or so operations there profitable, but the main improvement was the major increase in the price of oil. When oil went down 30 months ago, Suncor and Syncrude both tightened their belts significantly.

So yeah, there's plenty of oil there. But if you think that most of those reserves are anywhere close to economically viable in the mid term, you are fooling yourself. But hey, what do I know... I'm only a mining engineer who's been involved with the oil sands for the last 10 years...
Remster

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Yes in 100+ years from now, oil will begin to become scarce. But we will all be long dead before this happens.



Yeah, it's always best to leave the worrying for future generations. Let them figure it out when we could have....right? :S


Why not? Seems to be the plan for Social Security.....:ph34r:


LOL, true. Of course I never said that was a good idea either :)
Performance Designs Factory Team

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I never said there was cheap oil. Yes the world is running short on cheap easy to access oil. But the world will not be running out of oil anytime soon.



Obviously there is a price point at which time it is practically the same thing.

When the pumps read $100 a gallon, for most people that will be identical to being out of oil. Now, you would be correct that at that point we would certainly not be out of oil, but it would be a very hollow point to make.

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$100 a gallon? Wherever did you get that number? Maybe when Nobel Peace Prize winner Obama starts a war with Iran where nothing is allowed to sail out of the "Straight of Hormuz" would we see significantly higher prices at the pumps than we are seeing today. But a $100/gallon?


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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$100 a gallon? Wherever did you get that number? Maybe when Nobel Peace Prize winner Obama starts a war with Iran where nothing is allowed to sail out of the "Straight of Hormuz" would we see significantly higher prices at the pumps than we are seeing today. But a $100/gallon?



You're just jumping about like a march hare today, aren't you? Why will the strait of Hormuz be important when we're relying on Canadian tar sands?
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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You're just jumping about like a march hare today, aren't you?



I am simply pointing out that there is enough oil in Western Canada to power the entire world for the next century, meaning the world is not about to run out of oil as some people here have claimed. But that does not mean the entire world is lining up to buy the oil in Western Canada ... at least not at this time.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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You're just jumping about like a march hare today, aren't you?



I am simply pointing out that there is enough oil in Western Canada to power the entire world for the next century, meaning the world is not about to run out of oil as some people here have claimed. But that does not mean the entire world is lining up to buy the oil in Western Canada ... at least not at this time.



And as other people have pointed out, unless you're prepared to spend a week's wages driving to the next town you will not be able to rely upon Canadian oil in the same way as we can on oil from the Gulf(s), North Sea, etc.

If you want to tout the Canadian oil fields as a viable alternative to current oil fields, then you can't use availability of oil from current fields as a reason why oil prices wont rise if we have to rely on Canada. If you're not claiming that the Canadian oil fields (and other oil sands) are a viable alternative to conventional fields then the claim that the earth won't 'run out' of oil is mere semantics. If it's not available A) at a great enough rate and B) at a low enough cost then we're still going to need to rely more and more on alternative sources of energy.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Please point out exactly where I have said in this thread (or any other thread) that humanity should not be actively seeking out different sources of fuel. I am simply pointing out that the world is not about to run out of oil anytime soon.

If you want to buy yourself an electric car, knock yourself out. They make perfect sense for people who live in mild climates and who never leave their urban settings. They are less viable when you live in a cold climate and/or need to travel long distances. Of course make sure you know where your sources of electricity are coming from. Not everyone is lucky enough to live where hydro electric power is available in abundance and you could be trading one GHG producer for another.

By the way here is a hybrid vehicle I am very much interested in (F1 is doing pretty much the same thing with their KERS technology). This hybrid technology is not feasible for public consumption at this time, but remember when the first mobile phones where the size of shoe boxes.


Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

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