matthewcline 0 #26 December 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteyou missed my poitn as usual, so I will state is again: Bush was so fucking wrong with all aspects of this war, I cannot believe he could take any credit except for taking the credit for starting it. And if he takes the credit for starting it then he should also be taking the blame for starting it. Sorry, we aren't going to forget left-wingers like Harry Reid declaring the war was lost and we needed to turn tail and slink away in the night. We aren't going to forget "General Betrayus". We aren't going to forget opposition to the Surge. Now the left-wingers want to claim credit? Give me a break. What did he do again to earn that nick name from a newspaper? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #27 December 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteYou really don't see why we should maintain a presence in Iraq? Seriously?? Nope. As in: Fuck no. The US went there because G. W. Bush was bamboozled into proving himself to his chicken-hawk staffers, showing-up his dad and assuaging his Oedipus complex. The result was endless blood, as well as the squandering of so much treasure that, yes, the US is still the only modern, industrialized country in the world without universal national health care coverage. In the meantime, the Halliburtons of the country get richer and fatter, while the ranks of the under-employed and uninsured.... well, that speaks for itself. It's a shame and a disgrace; but just like Saudis who see nothing wrong with beheading women for sorcery, many average Americans are simply oblivious to the shame and disgrace. And many of them post on blogs, repeat FoxNews sound bytes and loyally go to the polls on Election Day and vote for More Of The Same®. And so it goes. And some have their heads so far up their ass with hatred for Bush that they can't see beyond their left-wing ideology. They continue to repeat the liberal lie that somehow (although they can't explain it or offer any proof) that GWB "knew" there were no WMD's. Even though the previous administration and the one before that and the CIA thought they did. Some even to this day continue to vomit their hatred on blogs on the internet, parrot left-wing talking points and somehow hope and pray that pulling all troops out of Iraq will suddenly be O.K. Some are even dumb enough to not see the strategic advantage of having a presence to develop intel on Iran. They choose to believe the myth that they either aren't developing nuclear weapons or that once they have them, they won't use them. Lalalalala... bring all the troops home and pretend the threats in the world aren't real anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #28 December 17, 2011 Quote Quote You really don't see why we should maintain a presence in Iraq? Seriously?? If we are paid an awful lot to be there, fine. If it costs us a nickel to do so, no. Ah ha! A Donald Trump supporter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 185 #29 December 17, 2011 Quote Quote Quote You really don't see why we should maintain a presence in Iraq? Seriously?? If we are paid an awful lot to be there, fine. If it costs us a nickel to do so, no. Ah ha! A Donald Trump supporter. I do not think I have paid any attention to Trump for decades. I am simply sick to death of incurring staggering amounts of debt in the process of waging war against an endless series of entities. Any victory we may achieve thereby is sure to be Pyrrhic - our defeat will be economic, not military, and we are its authors. Any student of History will tell you that, if you have to wager on the cause of collapse of an empire, selecting financial ruin is very nearly a sure bet. It would be nice if Accounting 101 - or at least Elementary School Arithmetic - was a qualification for elective office where management of public funds is involved. Unfortunately, the innumeracy of elected officials is near total, as demonstrated routinely. BSBD, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 124 #30 December 17, 2011 QuoteHE should be getting the credit and not Obama...right? sure - he can take the credit for it - I have no problem with that. However I do have a problem with the lack of war crimes prosecution for starting it in the first place. My Uncle Fred groped a young girl - does it make it right if he buys her a lollipop afterwards? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #31 December 17, 2011 Trumps position is that Iraq and Libya should reimburse the U.S. for liberating them. In fact he said that before assisting Libya, we should have signed an agreement with the rebels that they would give us 1/2 their oil in exchange for their freedom. He also thinks that iraq should give us 1/2 their oil in exchange for us staying and providing security. He thinks it makes sense because the alternative is that we leave and Iran (now with nuclear weapons) moves in and takes their oil instead. As nutty as Trump sounds sometimes, other times he make sense. I find myself agreeing with him at times on certain issues. Other issues, he completely off base on. You would probably find yourself agreeing with his stance in China and his statements that much of the world views the U.S. as a patsy, run by idiot politicians who only care about lining their own pockets. I wouldn't rule a Trump Presidential run out. I would also never under estimate him. He's obviously very savvy to have gotten where he is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #32 December 17, 2011 QuoteTrumps position is that Iraq and Libya should reimburse the U.S. for liberating them. In fact he said that before assisting Libya, we should have signed an agreement with the rebels that they would give us 1/2 their oil in exchange for their freedom. He also thinks that iraq should give us 1/2 their oil in exchange for us staying and providing security. Thereby playing right into the hands of people all over the world who say the US is engaged in the Middle East to appropriate its oil. Oh, wait - Americans don't give a shit what anyone else thinks about them. Never mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #33 December 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteTrumps position is that Iraq and Libya should reimburse the U.S. for liberating them. In fact he said that before assisting Libya, we should have signed an agreement with the rebels that they would give us 1/2 their oil in exchange for their freedom. He also thinks that iraq should give us 1/2 their oil in exchange for us staying and providing security. Thereby playing right into the hands of people all over the world who say the US is engaged in the Middle East to appropriate its oil. Oh, wait - Americans don't give a shit what anyone else thinks about them. Never mind. No, they are getting something in return..their Freedom in the case of Libya. Trump is right when he says we need to start charging for our "Services". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #34 December 17, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteTrumps position is that Iraq and Libya should reimburse the U.S. for liberating them. In fact he said that before assisting Libya, we should have signed an agreement with the rebels that they would give us 1/2 their oil in exchange for their freedom. He also thinks that iraq should give us 1/2 their oil in exchange for us staying and providing security. Thereby playing right into the hands of people all over the world who say the US is engaged in the Middle East to appropriate its oil. Oh, wait - Americans don't give a shit what anyone else thinks about them. Never mind. No, they are getting something in return..their Freedom in the case of Libya. Trump is right when he says we need to start charging for our "Services". And what do you propose the US do when the bill is ignored or reneged on? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 620 #35 December 17, 2011 But on point to your thread TK, Bush DID sign the agreement promising to pull the troops by 2012. Obama kept the agreement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #36 December 17, 2011 While we're on the subject, when are the natives going to pay us for all the good things we brought to them like democracy and literacy. African-Americans too, they owe us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 185 #37 December 17, 2011 Quote While we're on the subject, when are the natives going to pay us for all the good things we brought to them like democracy and literacy. African-Americans too, they owe us. Their undying gratitude is payment enough. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #38 December 17, 2011 Quote And what do you propose the US do when the bill is ignored or reneged on? In Iraq's case, if they want us to stay, we sign a binding contract with a monthly payment. They don't pay, we leave. We leave and they want us back, there's a renewal fee to cover the cost of returning. In Libya's case, we sign a binding contract for "services rendered" They don't pay, their credit rating is downgraded. We could also lien their bank accounts. Heck, Andy, you're the Lawyer, you know how it works. They still don't pay, we just knee-cap their President/Dictator. Trumps point is well taken. Why should we continue to keep U.S Troops all over the world without compensation? Do you have any idea how much the local populations in European countries benefit from having American Troops there? No more free rides. Freedom isn't Free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usedtajump 1 #39 December 18, 2011 Quote Quote And what do you propose the US do when the bill is ignored or reneged on? In Iraq's case, if they want us to stay, we sign a binding contract with a monthly payment. They don't pay, we leave. We leave and they want us back, there's a renewal fee to cover the cost of returning. In Libya's case, we sign a binding contract for "services rendered" They don't pay, their credit rating is downgraded. We could also lien their bank accounts. Heck, Andy, you're the Lawyer, you know how it works. They still don't pay, we just knee-cap their President/Dictator. Trumps point is well taken. Why should we continue to keep U.S Troops all over the world without compensation? Do you have any idea how much the local populations in European countries benefit from having American Troops there? No more free rides. Freedom isn't Free. JFC, after reading all those conditions, we're really doing the logical thing by bailing on it all RTF now. The older I get the less I care who I piss off. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #40 December 18, 2011 QuoteIn Libya's case, .... They don't pay, their credit rating is downgraded. Oooooh, that'll learn 'em. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #41 December 18, 2011 Remember why Ghaddafi gave up his nukes? International pressure. I think it's a better policy than huddle and cowl and try and forget about the real world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #42 December 18, 2011 QuoteRemember why Ghaddafi gave up his nukes? International pressure. I think it's a better policy than huddle and cowl and try and forget about the real world. You're not even sticking to the topic. News flash: when you invade a country to knock over its dictatorship government, there usually isn't anyone to sign a "contract" with in advance of the invasion. And a contract signed retroactively (i.e., with the rebels-turned-new-government), i.e., after the invasion has already taken place, is lacking the element of consideration and thus is unenforceable. Anyhow, legal technicalities aside, you've clearly drunken the FoxNews sound-byte Kool-Aid that declining to sacrifice American blood and treasure to be the world's policeman amounts to cowardice. Fuck that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #43 December 18, 2011 QuoteQuoteRemember why Ghaddafi gave up his nukes? International pressure. I think it's a better policy than huddle and cowl and try and forget about the real world. You're not even sticking to the topic. News flash: when you invade a country to knock over its dictatorship government, there usually isn't anyone to sign a "contract" with in advance of the invasion. And a contract signed retroactively (i.e., with the rebels-turned-new-government), i.e., after the invasion has already taken place, is lacking the element of consideration and thus is unenforceable. And you clearly have a problem following a simple diversion in a thread. I was simply stating "Donald Trumps" view on aiding other countries. Sorry you got confused. I'll try to keep things simplier for your benefit. QuoteAnyhow, legal technicalities aside, you've clearly drunken the FoxNews sound-byte Kool-Aid that declining to sacrifice American blood and treasure to be the world's policeman amounts to cowardice. Fuck that. Once again you are simply parroting left-wing talking points likely gleaned from DU or Move-On. It's clear you don't mind being a useful tool to continue the Liberal Lie. Let's see your "proof" that Bush knew there were no WMD's and invaded to please his daddy. You know "proof" like is required in a courtroom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Belgian_Draft 0 #44 December 18, 2011 Quote Why would anybody lable that war as a success? A genocidal tyrant who experimented with chemical weapons on his own people? But then, maybe you don't give a flying fuck about that kind of thing and would rather we sat back and watched/allowed it to happen. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #45 December 18, 2011 QuoteTrumps position is that Iraq and Libya should reimburse the U.S. for liberating them. In fact he said that before assisting Libya, we should have signed an agreement with the rebels that they would give us 1/2 their oil in exchange for their freedom. He also thinks that iraq should give us 1/2 their oil in exchange for us staying and providing security. Perhaps you have forgotten, The rebuiling and "liberation" of Iraq was supposed to be under 50 billion. at least that's what the Bush administration claimed. QuoteIf you can remember that far back, before the invasion of Iraq, Dick Cheney and friends were arrogantly sure that (a) the cost of the war would be minimal, and (b) Iraq's oil revenue would fund reconstruction efforts; it would virtually be a no-cost war, one that paid for itself. Then, reality met fantasy and, as usual, reality prevailed. Sunday, January 19, 2003: --Q: Mr. Secretary, on Iraq, how much money do you think the Department of Defense would need to pay for a war with Iraq? --A (Rumsfeld): Well, the Office of Management and Budget, has come up come up with a number that's something under $50 billion for the cost. How much of that would be the U.S. burden, and how much would be other countries, is an open question. I think the way to put it into perspective is that the estimates as to what September 11th cost the United States of America ranges high up into the hundreds of billions of dollars. Now, another event in the United States that was like September 11th, and which cost thousands of lives, but one that involved a -- for example, a biological weapon, would be -- have a cost in human life, as well as in billions, hundreds of billions of dollars, that would be vastly greater. 3/27/03 testimony before a Senate Appropriations Hearing a. Rumsfeld: I don't believe that the United States has the responsibility for reconstruction, in a sense...[Reconstruction] funds can come from those various sources I mentioned: frozen assets, oil revenues and a variety of other things, including the Oil for Food, which has a very substantial number of billions of dollars in it. b. Wolfowitz: We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #46 December 18, 2011 So you agree with Trump? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #47 December 18, 2011 QuoteQuoteSo you agree with Trump? No. I was only pointing out that Republicans tend to vastly underestimate the cost of military operations. Why would Trump be different? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #48 December 18, 2011 How does that relate to this discussion? You left-wingers just can't help yourselves sometimes can you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #49 December 18, 2011 Quote Quote How does that relate to this discussion? You left-wingers just can't help yourselves sometimes can you? How? You were stating how much you agrred with Trump's idea that we should have been reimbursed with oil for the invasion and "liberation" of Iraq and for any other country that needs our help. The last administration promise a fraction of as much, and if they could not deliver on that, how could they deliver on one half of their oil? Do you really fail to see a connection? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #50 December 18, 2011 Quote Quote Quote How does that relate to this discussion? You left-wingers just can't help yourselves sometimes can you? How? You were stating how much you agrred with Trump's idea that we should have been reimbursed with oil for the invasion and "liberation" of Iraq and for any other country that needs our help. The last administration promise a fraction of as much, and if they could not deliver on that, how could they deliver on one half of their oil? Do you really fail to see a connection? Because you have chosen once again to obsessively focus on the last administrations failure to collect on Iraq and ignored Trumps idea for collecting in the future. I agree with him that when the rebels in Libya asked for US and NATO help, there should have been a price tag put on it. See if you can focus on the reasons for or against that view. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Belgian_Draft 0 #44 December 18, 2011 Quote Why would anybody lable that war as a success? A genocidal tyrant who experimented with chemical weapons on his own people? But then, maybe you don't give a flying fuck about that kind of thing and would rather we sat back and watched/allowed it to happen. HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #45 December 18, 2011 QuoteTrumps position is that Iraq and Libya should reimburse the U.S. for liberating them. In fact he said that before assisting Libya, we should have signed an agreement with the rebels that they would give us 1/2 their oil in exchange for their freedom. He also thinks that iraq should give us 1/2 their oil in exchange for us staying and providing security. Perhaps you have forgotten, The rebuiling and "liberation" of Iraq was supposed to be under 50 billion. at least that's what the Bush administration claimed. QuoteIf you can remember that far back, before the invasion of Iraq, Dick Cheney and friends were arrogantly sure that (a) the cost of the war would be minimal, and (b) Iraq's oil revenue would fund reconstruction efforts; it would virtually be a no-cost war, one that paid for itself. Then, reality met fantasy and, as usual, reality prevailed. Sunday, January 19, 2003: --Q: Mr. Secretary, on Iraq, how much money do you think the Department of Defense would need to pay for a war with Iraq? --A (Rumsfeld): Well, the Office of Management and Budget, has come up come up with a number that's something under $50 billion for the cost. How much of that would be the U.S. burden, and how much would be other countries, is an open question. I think the way to put it into perspective is that the estimates as to what September 11th cost the United States of America ranges high up into the hundreds of billions of dollars. Now, another event in the United States that was like September 11th, and which cost thousands of lives, but one that involved a -- for example, a biological weapon, would be -- have a cost in human life, as well as in billions, hundreds of billions of dollars, that would be vastly greater. 3/27/03 testimony before a Senate Appropriations Hearing a. Rumsfeld: I don't believe that the United States has the responsibility for reconstruction, in a sense...[Reconstruction] funds can come from those various sources I mentioned: frozen assets, oil revenues and a variety of other things, including the Oil for Food, which has a very substantial number of billions of dollars in it. b. Wolfowitz: We're dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction, and relatively soon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #46 December 18, 2011 So you agree with Trump? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #47 December 18, 2011 QuoteQuoteSo you agree with Trump? No. I was only pointing out that Republicans tend to vastly underestimate the cost of military operations. Why would Trump be different? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #48 December 18, 2011 How does that relate to this discussion? You left-wingers just can't help yourselves sometimes can you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jclalor 12 #49 December 18, 2011 Quote Quote How does that relate to this discussion? You left-wingers just can't help yourselves sometimes can you? How? You were stating how much you agrred with Trump's idea that we should have been reimbursed with oil for the invasion and "liberation" of Iraq and for any other country that needs our help. The last administration promise a fraction of as much, and if they could not deliver on that, how could they deliver on one half of their oil? Do you really fail to see a connection? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gravitymaster 0 #50 December 18, 2011 Quote Quote Quote How does that relate to this discussion? You left-wingers just can't help yourselves sometimes can you? How? You were stating how much you agrred with Trump's idea that we should have been reimbursed with oil for the invasion and "liberation" of Iraq and for any other country that needs our help. The last administration promise a fraction of as much, and if they could not deliver on that, how could they deliver on one half of their oil? Do you really fail to see a connection? Because you have chosen once again to obsessively focus on the last administrations failure to collect on Iraq and ignored Trumps idea for collecting in the future. I agree with him that when the rebels in Libya asked for US and NATO help, there should have been a price tag put on it. See if you can focus on the reasons for or against that view. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 2 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Gravitymaster 0 #46 December 18, 2011 So you agree with Trump? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #47 December 18, 2011 QuoteQuoteSo you agree with Trump? No. I was only pointing out that Republicans tend to vastly underestimate the cost of military operations. Why would Trump be different? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #48 December 18, 2011 How does that relate to this discussion? You left-wingers just can't help yourselves sometimes can you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #49 December 18, 2011 Quote Quote How does that relate to this discussion? You left-wingers just can't help yourselves sometimes can you? How? You were stating how much you agrred with Trump's idea that we should have been reimbursed with oil for the invasion and "liberation" of Iraq and for any other country that needs our help. The last administration promise a fraction of as much, and if they could not deliver on that, how could they deliver on one half of their oil? Do you really fail to see a connection? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #50 December 18, 2011 Quote Quote Quote How does that relate to this discussion? You left-wingers just can't help yourselves sometimes can you? How? You were stating how much you agrred with Trump's idea that we should have been reimbursed with oil for the invasion and "liberation" of Iraq and for any other country that needs our help. The last administration promise a fraction of as much, and if they could not deliver on that, how could they deliver on one half of their oil? Do you really fail to see a connection? Because you have chosen once again to obsessively focus on the last administrations failure to collect on Iraq and ignored Trumps idea for collecting in the future. I agree with him that when the rebels in Libya asked for US and NATO help, there should have been a price tag put on it. See if you can focus on the reasons for or against that view. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
