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SpeedRacer

Do you want to see liberalism defeated?

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I'm gonna guess that the military is going to impose a secular constitution similar to Turkey's. Furthermore I'm going to guess that it will be violently rejected. However since the military's access to the US aid tit depends on it, they won't back up. Not going to be pretty.

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Because the defeat of Obama/Pelosi/Liberalism would lead to that in the US.

Um, no. I didn't bring up Obama or Pelosi. I don't think there would be too much of a radical change if they were defeated in an election.
My post was about Liberalism. Conservative commentators like to go on about how awful liberals are, or that liberalism is a disease, but we only have to look at the various political factions in the Middle East to see that in fact, some degree of Liberalism can actually be a good thing, and even preferable to the more Conservative factions in those countries.
Speed Racer
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Can't happen. It is a lack of critical thinking.... of living in fantasy land..... it's not real....... factual data is not looked at........

David Letterman does this all the time. When someone has facts that Dave doesnt like he literally turns his back on them.

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Wow - you're gonna have to define what you mean by liberalism:

If you mean Liberalism - this fundamental religion that has nothing to do with new ideas and just represents the goal of one intrenched party trying to crush another intrenched party - with the members being completely closed minded and angry and dismissive of alternate and new thoughts of others? - then absolutely

If you mean liberalism - to accept and try out new ideas, etc - then not at all - we need that (wacky 'liberal' ideas - reduce government spending dramatically, privatizing a lot of social concepts, allowing new energy markets to develop without interference,.....crazy, wacky ideas I state just for example that liberalism is not identified with just the one political strata)

If you mean liberalism - for example - giving me an extra helping of chocolate syrup on my vanilla ice cream - then not at all - I like that

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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There are no new Liberal ideas. Just re-circulation of the failed ones from the past.



That's just silly sloganeering. The same thing could be said about conservative ideology, both economic and social. In, for example, the US, the debate and the rhetoric between what we now refer to as liberalism and conservatism has changed very little since Teddy Roosevelt was president.

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>Historically, progressives propose new things and conservatives oppose them.



by the generic definition of the terms, absolutely - however, I'm sure we can agree that our current parties are both very conservative in that they oppose, in general, anything that changes the existing power/spending structure.

In this case - Liberal and Conservative (social and/or fiscal) groups also have noting to do with true "liberal" and "conservative" philosophy

in it were, we'd call guys like Ron Paul true liberals and guys like Obama and the cast of Rep candidates extreme conservatives

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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>There are no new Liberal ideas.

Gay marriage is pretty new.

Gay Marriage is just an expansion marriage right for all including inter-racial marriage which is just an expasion of inter-Faith Marriages etc.. Nothing new, really.

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Historically, progressives propose new things and conservatives oppose them.



And many of the "new things" Liberals propose are dumb. Such as spending our way out of debt. But again, that's not a new idea. Just one that fails whenever it's tried.

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>however, I'm sure we can agree that our current parties are both very conservative
>in that they oppose, in general, anything that changes the existing power/spending
>structure.

Definitely. That would be a disconnect between the democrat/republican labels and the definition of liberal, progressive and conservative.

>in it were, we'd call guys like Ron Paul true liberals and guys like Obama and the cast
>of Rep candidates extreme conservatives

If if were possible to shoehorn people with such divergent views into a single set of stereotypes - yes.

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>Gay Marriage is just an expansion marriage right for all including inter-racial marriage
>which is just an expasion of inter-Faith Marriages etc.. Nothing new, really.

Sorta true. The granting of rights to women and civil rights for blacks were also nothing new, strictly speaking - just the extension of rights that were already described in the US Constitution.

Yet often conservatives oppose such minor changes while the people who desire them fight for them - so clearly those rights (or denial of those rights) are a big deal to some people.

>And many of the "new things" Liberals propose are dumb.

Also agreed.

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Gay Marriage is just an expansion marriage right for all including inter-racial marriage which is just an expasion of inter-Faith Marriages etc.. Nothing new, really.

If it is just an expansion of marriage, and marriage isn't new, then why do Conservatives so oppose it? Hint: it's because it is new, and Conservatives hate anything that disrupts their world view that everything was perfect in the 18th century and it's all been downhill from there.

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Such as spending our way out of debt. But again, that's not a new idea. Just one that fails whenever it's tried.

So no one ever made any money by investing in anything? Odd, I thought spending money (in a business, in stocks, etc) on something that might grow in value was the essence of investing. Silly ol' liberal me, thinking a good way to make money was by investing.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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If if were possible to shoehorn people with such divergent views into a single set of stereotypes - yes.



It IS Speaker's Corner - So it's assumed...:P



One could still argue that these people don't really have that divergent of views - they want control and they want it 'their' way

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Conservatives hate anything that disrupts their world view that everything was perfect in the 18th century and it's all been downhill from there.



That's some SWEET SWEET candy there.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Gay Marriage is just an expansion marriage right for all including inter-racial marriage which is just an expasion of inter-Faith Marriages etc.. Nothing new, really.

If it is just an expansion of marriage, and marriage isn't new, then why do Conservatives so oppose it? Hint: it's because it is new, and Conservatives hate anything that disrupts their world view that everything was perfect in the 18th century and it's all been downhill from there.

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Such as spending our way out of debt. But again, that's not a new idea. Just one that fails whenever it's tried.

So no one ever made any money by investing in anything? Odd, I thought spending money (in a business, in stocks, etc) on something that might grow in value was the essence of investing. Silly ol' liberal me, thinking a good way to make money was by investing.

Don



Solyndra, Chevy Volt, Wall Street bailouts etc. Need I say more?

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Here's a novel idea...

Throw ALL the fuckers out and start from scratch with legislators that really do have the good of the country in mind.



Sorry, but that's a hopeless platitude, one that I've given up on in my heart-healthy, low-sodium middle age. It simply would never work in any "democratic" society, anywhere in the world.

Why? The lesser reason is the role of money and influence-trading in getting elected to office. But suppose, hypothetically, that factor were to be eliminated. It still wouldn't work.

Why? The main reason is because of basic human nature: people (in fact, most social-group animals, too) naturally divide themselves (and others) into factions, partly out of ideology, and partly out of self-interest. You see it everywhere, even in micro-environments like, say, office politics, neighborhood politics, church politics, DZ politics, platoon or college dorm politics, etc. Alliances form, which become factions; and then the most important thing becomes to proceed in the best interest of, first, personal alliances, and then, factional alliances. Without this, frankly, it becomes nearly impossible to get anything done.

Loners don't get very far, especially in government, which by definition involves cooperation within and between groups.

And as long as that dynamic exists, public interest will always play second fiddle to factional politics in the process of governance.

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>Throw ALL the fuckers out and start from scratch with legislators that really do have
>the good of the country in mind.

And we'd get them. And the first guy up would have seen the damage done by an oil spill, and day one, 9am would start with new regulations intended to prevent oil spills. For the good of the country. And at 9:15am the right wingers would attack for being in Al Gore's pocket, just a clueless liberal who wants to destroy industry.

Then at 9:30am the second guy would propose cutting taxes, because he'd seen what high taxes did to friends of his. And at 9:45am the left wingers would attack him for being in the pocket of big business and fucking the little guy. And at 10am the right wingers would attack him for increasing the deficit.

And we'd have a new set of fuckers, just as despised as the previous set.

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