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Kennedy

So Tell Me Again About "Peaceful" Protests

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It may not be a given, but it is far more likely.


Yes, not a given.


Well, which would you rather police use, methods less likely to result in injury, or methods more likely to result in injury?

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The use of pepper spray (and TASERs, believe it or not) have both resulted in fewer injuries to officers and to suspects.



Why, obviously, of course! It's kinda hard to fight when you're squirming on the ground after being sprayed or TASERed.

I assume that you don't consider being sprayed as being injured.:S

And...since you stated it, I'll ask. "Fewer injuries than what?"


Fewer injuries than empty hands techniques. And no, getting sprayed is not being injured. I've been sprayed (to the point of dripping wet) three times, and exposed more or less many other times. I've never been injured from spray. What injury do you think OC exposure causes?

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It's really, really simple. In these situations, do the least violent first. Respond to the response in kind or better.

For the life of me, I don't understand how you can argue against that.



I happen to agree with the Supreme Court. I wouldn't require officers use the least violent action (it's impossible to know what the least amount of effective force is). I would require officers use a reasonable response. Like someone already tried to get across, using ineffective responses not only fails to resolve the situation, it is actually counterproductive in that it tends to escalate an already bad situation. Example: an officer doesn't pepper spray a guy who is threatening him with a baseball bat. He also doesn't use his baton. He goes for a firearm or a TASER. Why? Officers are not expected or required to fight fair. They are expected to complete whatever duty they are attempting to perform, while complying with law and policy.

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You guys can go beat up anybody and everybody. Have fun with it. '68 Chicago PD were your heroes, I guess.

As for the bozos planning stuff....the cops played right into their hands. Who would have been smiling had the cops simply removed them instead of spraying them? The cops. As it is, some of the cops are not smiling now, are they?
Bozos: "Ooooops, the plan didn't work."



Have you watched the video I posted?
Alternate View of UC Davis Pepper Spraying

You need to get it out of your head that officers just showed up and sprayed a bunch of kids for sitting on the sidewalk.
Officers made an arrest. Protesters surrounded the officers. Protesters then linked arms. Protesters chanted "IF YOU LET THEM GO, WE WILL LET YOU LEAVE." Officers explained that protesters were breaking the law, and subject to use of force. Protesters chose not to move. Officers then waited until additional officers arrived. Officers again explained that force would be used and allowed protesters the chance to leave. Two officers then attempted to moved a protester by grabbing and lifting. This didn't work because protesters had linked arms and refused to let go. Officers then used pepper spray.

Things look a little different when you see more than thirty seconds and more than on camera POV, don't they?
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Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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Things look a little different when you see more than thirty seconds and more than on camera POV, don't they?



They do.

Specially like how the cop who is goign to pepper spraying them fornot letting the cops leave, steps frmo the inside of the ring to the outside of the ring.

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Things look a little different when you see more than thirty seconds and more than on camera POV, don't they?



They do.

Specially like how the cop who is goign to pepper spraying them fornot letting the cops leave, steps frmo the inside of the ring to the outside of the ring.



Uh huh, and do you have anything to say about surrounding officers and preventing them from doing their job? Or do you think it's ok to surround people and refuse to move? Should officers be expected to carry an arrestee over other people?

Anything to say about the lies told about officers? Did you see anyone's mouth pried open and OC spray into their mouths? Did you see that tents were NOT taken down before the arrest was made? Did you see how officers spoke with protesters and protesters refused to move? Did you see how protesters understood they'd be sprayed and chose not to move? Did you see how officers DID try to move the protesters with empty hands before pepper spray was used?
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Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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The Chancellor of the college made the right move suspending (with pay) the officer's involved pending the results of an investigation, however, if any of these guys gets disciplined in any way over this thing, the Chancellor should lose her job. Those kids endangered themselves and others pulling that encirclement move. Really stupid, even for kids.

The bad thing, unfortunately, is that other protestors elsewhere will try the same thing and it won't turn out so well. You are going to have to step over these dim bulbs and schlep the cuffed guy over them too.

What does it mean when our best and brightest kids *intend* to cause harm in order to *not* make a point.
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You didnt watch the last vid linked

did you[:/]



Yep. Did you notice that the text said one cop tried to move a protester without spraying? Did you notice the "attempt"? Picked up the guys hand and let it go....nice try.

Ahhhhh...but after the spray, did you notice how active the cops got with taking them away? Some here seem to think that couldn't be accomplished without the spray, or without anybody getting hurt.

Bullshit.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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You didnt watch the last vid linked

did you[:/]



Yep. Did you notice that the text said one cop tried to move a protester without spraying? Did you notice the "attempt"? Picked up the guys hand and let it go....nice try.

Ahhhhh...but after the spray, did you notice how active the cops got with taking them away? Some here seem to think that couldn't be accomplished without the spray, or without anybody getting hurt.

Bullshit.


Well we are going to have to disagree

I am no fan of police but they were doing a job with a bunch of fucking nitwits

They got WHAT THEY WERE AFTER in the end
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Well we are going to have to disagree

I am no fan of police but they were doing a job with a bunch of fucking nitwits

They got WHAT THEY WERE AFTER in the end



No disagreement there except I'm not real sure they were after being sprayed. I would agree that they were a bunch of fucking nitwits and after some sort of confrontation that would make the cops look bad. IMO, they succeeded in that and they made themselves look even worse in the process.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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They got a well deserved spanking. The cops could have put them over there knees, something their failure parents should have done years ago.



:D:D:D
A vastly more appropriate action. I hope they are glad that they didn't have MY Dad for a father...he had a big, wide leather belt.
[:/]

I'm tellin' ya'. Kids these days....
:o
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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They got a well deserved spanking. The cops could have put them over there knees, something their failure parents should have done years ago.



Yup, they needed sprayin'


I first read spayin'...:D:D:D
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Uh huh, and do you have anything to say about surrounding officers and preventing them from doing their job? Or do you think it's ok to surround people and refuse to move? Should officers be expected to carry an arrestee over other people?

Anything to say about the lies told about officers? Did you see anyone's mouth pried open and OC spray into their mouths? Did you see that tents were NOT taken down before the arrest was made? Did you see how officers spoke with protesters and protesters refused to move? Did you see how protesters understood they'd be sprayed and chose not to move? Did you see how officers DID try to move the protesters with empty hands before pepper spray was used?



I like how your argument changed from "preventing them to leave" to "preventing them from doing their job".

Clearly they weren't prevented at any point from doing their job.

Clearly they were also never prevented from leaving.

As a matter of fact, the protestors "allowed" the officer to leave to do a better job of directing the spray in their faces.

I don't dispute that the officers were within their rights to do so, I do dispute that there was not a better way of handling the situation.

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>I don't dispute that the officers were within their rights to do so, I do dispute that there
>was not a better way of handling the situation.

Agreed. A good example of what happens when two groups of fairly clueless people interact - no one wins.

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Maybe one should try putting themselves in the cop's position, AND also putting themselves in the kid's position and then seeing which group you think you could have done better. And which group had more options.




I hate "speech" when it's a mob like this. The gathering is the only real speech = "we're all together here because we're upset about 'something'". After that, it turns into a mob with no real interchange or discussions allowed, idiotic behavior, refusal to debate or listen,incoherence, etc, etc, etc. though it's still one form of known protest, it seems to always be the least productive. But maybe attendance at least impresses the more simpleminded college girls.

And the 'mic' is so idiotic, I feel like I'm listening to a kindergarten play - and the topic just doesn't matter, just have the drones repeat the mantra.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Uh huh, and do you have anything to say about surrounding officers and preventing them from doing their job? Or do you think it's ok to surround people and refuse to move? Should officers be expected to carry an arrestee over other people?

Anything to say about the lies told about officers? Did you see anyone's mouth pried open and OC spray into their mouths? Did you see that tents were NOT taken down before the arrest was made? Did you see how officers spoke with protesters and protesters refused to move? Did you see how protesters understood they'd be sprayed and chose not to move? Did you see how officers DID try to move the protesters with empty hands before pepper spray was used?



I like how your argument changed from "preventing them to leave" to "preventing them from doing their job".

Clearly they weren't prevented at any point from doing their job.

Clearly they were also never prevented from leaving.

As a matter of fact, the protestors "allowed" the officer to leave to do a better job of directing the spray in their faces.

I don't dispute that the officers were within their rights to do so, I do dispute that there was not a better way of handling the situation.



My argument hasn't changed. The protesters prevented the officers from doing their job by preventing them from leaving. By your logic, there's nothing with locking cops in a building to prevent them from arresting your friend. "They can just break out of the building, so they weren't really stopped." Wrong. Just because officers can overcome resistance that doesn't mean it isn't really resistance. Those officers made at least two arrests. The protesters surrounded the officers. Since the protesters refused to move, the officers are going to take steps to make them move.

Officers are not going to carry an arrestee over a line of protesters. There is all kinds of liability and vulnerability involved in doing that. The officers are going to leave, and they are going to take the arrestees with them. The protesters' choices left the officers no option but using force.

If you want to argue about the appropriate level of force, then you need to understand how police use of force policies work and how relevant court cases have been decided. The officers tried gentle hands "lifting, guiding, directing" type of actions. No, they didn't try long because those actions clearly would not move protesters. They linked arms, remember? So since a "soft hands" approach did not work, the officers move to another level of force. (note that officers are not required to use each level of force before resorting to a higher one) Officers could have gone straight to using "hand hands" empty hands tenchniques (call it DT, SCAT, EHC, whatever). However, they elected to use the level of force lower than hard hands and less likely to result in injury: pepper spray.

Maybe you think it would have been better to do something else. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But officers used force exactly how their state law, state training, and department policy instruct them to act.
What would you rather they have done, force the protesters apart without using OC spray?
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Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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>I don't dispute that the officers were within their rights to do so, I do dispute that there
>was not a better way of handling the situation.

Agreed. A good example of what happens when two groups of fairly clueless people interact - no one wins.



Why do you call the officers clueless?
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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>I don't dispute that the officers were within their rights to do so, I do dispute that there
>was not a better way of handling the situation.

Agreed. A good example of what happens when two groups of fairly clueless people interact - no one wins.



Why do you call the officers clueless?



He often argues from a point where he believes he knows better and anyone in a situtation

I have learned to ignore that
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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>Why do you call the officers clueless?

Because they did not think before acting. Instead they just blundered ahead. And rather than letting that particular protest fade into obscurity, they did something stupid that gave the OWS a bloody shirt to wave, energized the movement and got themselves suspended.

That's pretty clueless.

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>Why do you call the officers clueless?

Because they did not think before acting. Instead they just blundered ahead. And rather than letting that particular protest fade into obscurity, they did something stupid that gave the OWS a bloody shirt to wave, energized the movement and got themselves suspended.

That's pretty clueless.



Sorry
They did nothing stupid or anything of the sort
They did what they were trained to do
They did what the nitwits forced them to do


As you state the OWS duffi got their bloody shirt
They got what they wanted
They would have gotten it another way if it had not happened this way IMO

In the end, they got what they deserved, and maybe less than than what they had coming
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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My argument hasn't changed. The protesters prevented the officers from doing their job by preventing them from leaving.


Jesus H. Christ, Kennedy...Did YOU watch the video? Did you not see the one cop simply step through the line with nobody preventing him? Nobody even lifted a finger to stop him.

Geez. You're being silly spouting that same mantra day after day.!

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Officers are not going to carry an arrestee over a line of protesters.


Not going to? Holy bananas and pass the peas...they did just that...and dragged some away....after the spraying, of course. Even your cop-supporting, edited video showed that before it was...ummmm....conveniently shut down.!

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If you want to argue about the appropriate level of force, then you need to understand how police use of force policies work


You've already blown your credibility there.

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The officers tried gentle hands "lifting, guiding, directing" type of actions. No, they didn't try long because those actions clearly would not move protesters.


:D:D
Right. Got it. Lifted one guy's arm and backed away like, "He's not going with me, Daddy. Maybe you should spray him".
:S:S
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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>They did what they were trained to do

Hmm. Cops are trained to spray passive students sitting on the ground with pepper spray? You must have gone to a very different college than I (or anyone I know) went to.

Well, unless you went to Kent State, I suppose. But even those students were throwing rocks.

>As you state the OWS duffi got their bloody shirt . . They got what they wanted

Yep. Due to some clueless cops, they won. They are heros and the cops are suspended.

>In the end, they got what they deserved, and maybe less than than what they had
>coming

So did the cops. They got suspended, and that's probably less than they deserve as well.

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>Why do you call the officers clueless?

Because they did not think before acting. Instead they just blundered ahead. And rather than letting that particular protest fade into obscurity, they did something stupid that gave the OWS a bloody shirt to wave, energized the movement and got themselves suspended.

That's pretty clueless.



It sounds like you have issues with the college admin that called in police. Do you have any action or inaction by officers that make you call them clueless? Or do you expect officers to do nothing when told to go enforce the law by the authority in their jurisdiction? Police do answer to some other authority, you know (city, county, state, college, corp, or Atty general).
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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>It sounds like you have issues with the college admin that called in police.

Yes. The Chancellor bears some of the blame for the resulting mess.

>Do you have any action or inaction by officers that make you call them clueless?

Spraying unresisting passive protesters in the face with pepper spray - and thinking that's a reasonable response to a student protest.

Honest question here - can you think of any other way they could have handled that situation?

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