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Kennedy

Death of a Salesman

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This poll was inspired by the circumstances surround the death of Anwar al Awlaki. He was killed by a US drone strike. He was a US citizen. He was a terrorist fundraiser, recruiter, etc.

I don't mourn his death. I'm not upset that he is dead. My concern is that he was killed without a trial. No courts, no judgement, no death sentence. He was not attacking a US target. There was no combat in the area.

So, my question is: should POTUS be able to order the killing of a US citizen when there is no court judgment, no combat, and no exigent circumstances?
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Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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This poll was inspired by the circumstances surround the death of Anwar al Awlaki. He was killed by a US drone strike. He was a US citizen. He was a terrorist fundraiser, recruiter, etc.

I don't mourn his death. I'm not upset that he is dead. My concern is that he was killed without a trial. No courts, no judgement, no death sentence. He was not attacking a US target. There was no combat in the area.

So, my question is: should POTUS be able to order the killing of a US citizen when there is no court judgment, no combat, and no exigent circumstances?



Well, for a second I thought someone has been reading A. Miller.

:|

dudeist skydiver # 3105

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This poll was inspired by the circumstances surround the death of Anwar al Awlaki. He was killed by a US drone strike. He was a US citizen. He was a terrorist fundraiser, recruiter, etc.

I don't mourn his death. I'm not upset that he is dead. My concern is that he was killed without a trial. No courts, no judgement, no death sentence. He was not attacking a US target. There was no combat in the area.

So, my question is: should POTUS be able to order the killing of a US citizen when there is no court judgment, no combat, and no exigent circumstances?



You do not have a very good sence of identifying an enemy do you...:S:S

From WIKI..

Anwar al-Awlaki (also spelled Aulaqi; Arabic: أنور العولقي‎ Anwar al-‘Awlaqī; April 22, 1971 – September 30, 2011) was a Yemeni-American[9] imam who was an engineer and educator by training.[10][11] According to U.S. government officials, he was a senior talent recruiter and motivator who was involved with planning operations for the Islamist militant group al-Qaeda.[2][7][12][13][14][15] His sermons are alleged to have helped motivate at least three attacks inside the United States,[16] and was the first U.S. citizen to be added to a list of persons approved for targeted killing by the Central Intelligence Agency.[17][18][19] With a blog, a Facebook page, and many YouTube videos, he had been described by Saudi news station Al Arabiya as the "bin Laden of the Internet".[20][21] U.S. President Barack Obama alleged that Awlaki was "the leader of external operations for Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula".[22] Free speech issues were raised when US government officials asked social media websites to remove al-Awlaki sermon videos fearing calls for jihad.[23]

U.S. officials allege that Al-Awlaki spoke with and preached to a number of al-Qaeda members and affiliates, including three of the 9/11 hijackers,[24] alleged Fort Hood shooter Nidal Malik Hasan,[25][26] and alleged "Christmas Day bomber" Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab;[27][28][29] he was also allegedly involved in planning the latter's attack. The Yemeni government began trying him in absentia in November 2010, for plotting to kill foreigners and being a member of al-Qaeda, and a Yemenite judge ordered that he be captured "dead or alive".[30][31]

According to U.S. officials, al-Awlaki was promoted to the rank of "regional commander" within al-Qaeda in 2009.[4][32] He repeatedly called for jihad against the United States.[33][34] In April 2010, American President Obama approved Al-Awlaki's targeted killing,[17][18][19] an action unsuccessfully challenged by al-Awlaki's father and civil rights groups.[35]

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You do not have a very good sence[sic] of identifying an enemy do you...



Try again, Jeanne. I already said he was a terrorist. Fundraiser, recruiter, aid and comforter, and maybe more. Like I said, I'm not sad he's dead. I'm not even upset the US government was involved. My concern is that he was killed without involving the courts and without any active combat.
Were it court ordered after due process, give him the needle or the noose.
Were he involved in combat with US troops, give him fifty five grains of copper jacketed lead.
Were he caught by security or law enforcement trying to attack targets or posing a threat to innocents, if there's no chance to rough him cuff him and stuff him, then snuff him.

However, I am uncomfortable with a president having the power to place US citizens on a kill list. What about you? Do you support POTUS having the ability to place US citizens on kill lists?
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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Well, for a second I thought someone has been reading A. Miller.



I read Happy years and years ago. I don't need to pick up the script to remember the story. I used the title because al Awlaki was a salesman, and because the refusal of so many posters to listen to each other reminded me of the story.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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However, I am uncomfortable with a president having the power to place US citizens on a kill list. What about you? Do you support POTUS having the ability to place US citizens on kill lists?



As long as it's the Obamessiah, she'll be all for it. She's a Hawk when Obama does it, but she's an Flower Child shouting "War Criminal!" if a GOP President does it.

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I used the title because al Awlaki was a salesman . . .



Nope. The second he joined forces with Al Qaeda, he was a terrorist.

I have no issues whatsoever with him getting blown to smithereens in a way that cost no American lives.

Fuck him.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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This poll was inspired by the circumstances surround the death of Anwar al Awlaki. He was killed by a US drone strike. He was a US citizen. He was a terrorist fundraiser, recruiter, etc.

I don't mourn his death. I'm not upset that he is dead. My concern is that he was killed without a trial. No courts, no judgement, no death sentence. He was not attacking a US target. There was no combat in the area.

So, my question is: should POTUS be able to order the killing of a US citizen when there is no court judgment, no combat, and no exigent circumstances?



Well, for a second I thought someone has been reading A. Miller.

:|


No.. someone is just bein hypocritical..... go figure.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=198466#198466

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1039040#1039040

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3943641#3943641

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However, I am uncomfortable with a president having the power to place US citizens on a kill list. What about you? Do you support POTUS having the ability to place US citizens on kill lists?



As long as it's the Obamessiah, she'll be all for it. She's a Hawk when Obama does it, but she's an Flower Child shouting "War Criminal!" if a GOP President does it.



Nope... but unlike those who have no fucking clue... there is a rule book that applies to WAR.. even when the former Administration gets a flunkie like Gonzales to excuse their actions..... but hey... I hear there are plenty of "compliant" lawyers out there who will spin anything.. for a price.

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4197894;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

The link is to a similar discussion a while back.

My opinion was and still is that he represented enough of a threat to warrant this.
Not an immediate threat, but considering his reported direct involvement in the "Underwear Bomber" and his reported involvement in the Ft Hood shootings, he was a real and serious threat. "Clear and Present Danger" anyone?

I am a little uncomfortable with the lack of court judgement or trial, the fact that he never told his side of the story before he was killed. That can turn into a very slippery slope.

BUT...
He wasn't under a "Kill" order, it was a "Capture or Kill" order. Capture simply wasn't an option under those circumstances. Yemen has no effective police force. It's not like he was in a country that could arrest him and then go through the extradition process.
He was also aware of the C or K order. I believe it went to court (his father maybe?) about the legality of the order.
He could have given himself up and gone to court to state his case. He probably could have renounced his membership in AQ and stated he would no longer attack the US and the C or K order may have been lifted.

But he continued to be active in AQ and to threaten the US. And he paid the price.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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the fact that he never told his side of the story before he was killed.



He repeatedly told his story on YouTube and Al Jezzera. In doing so, he renounced any loyalty he may have ever had to the US and was an active recruiter for terrorism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Again, fuck him.

Anyone who wants to defend this asshole or shed a crocodile tear on his behalf can also go fuck themselves.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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However, I am uncomfortable with a president having the power to place US citizens on a kill list. What about you? Do you support POTUS having the ability to place US citizens on kill lists?



As long as it's the Obamessiah, she'll be all for it. She's a Hawk when Obama does it, but she's an Flower Child shouting "War Criminal!" if a GOP President does it.



Nope... but unlike those who have no fucking clue... there is a rule book that applies to WAR.. even when the former Administration gets a flunkie like Gonzales to excuse their actions..... but hey... I hear there are plenty of "compliant" lawyers out there who will spin anything.. for a price.



...& AG Holder is NOT a Flunkie?

Bwahahaha!

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the fact that he never told his side of the story before he was killed.



He repeatedly told his story on YouTube and Al Jezzera. In doing so, he renounced any loyalty he may have ever had to the US and was an active recruiter for terrorism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Again, fuck him.

Anyone who wants to defend this asshole can also go fuck themselves.



Nice way for a mod to act.
Very nice.

BTW, who has tried to defend him in this thread? In this forum even?
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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the fact that he never told his side of the story before he was killed.



He repeatedly told his story on YouTube and Al Jezzera. In doing so, he renounced any loyalty he may have ever had to the US and was an active recruiter for terrorism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Again, fuck him.

Anyone who wants to defend this asshole or shed a crocodile tear on his behalf can also go fuck themselves.



I think you miss the point. The Rule of Law says that even this guy deserved Due Process as a US Citizen. It's the tough cases, like this, that test one's true commitment to the Rule of Law.

Now, he is dead, and that's not a bad thing, but the means (an extra-judicial targeted killing of a Citizen) is what is problematic to Jurists...

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BTW, who has tried to defend him in this thread? In this forum even?



When some people pick up this ridiculous strategy of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" as a debate tactic in an attempt to stir up shit against Obama, then they ARE aligning themselves with some pretty fuckin' evil people.

Such is the case in this thread.

Anwar al-Awlaki was a horrible fucking person and a blight on humanity.

Again, fuck him.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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The Rule of Law says . . .



Please turn to page 1196 in Black's Law Dictionary and quote me exactly what it says about the concept of the "Rule of Law." Make particular note of the word "discretion." It doesn't say absolute. It most definitely leaves the door open for judgement in extraordinary circumstances.

This absolutely qualifies.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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BTW, who has tried to defend him in this thread? In this forum even?



When some people pick up this ridiculous strategy of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" as a debate tactic in an attempt to stir up shit against Obama, then they ARE aligning themselves with some pretty fuckin' evil people.

Such is the case in this thread.

Anwar al-Awlaki was a horrible fucking person and a blight on humanity.

Again, fuck him.



Care to state who you see in this thread using that strategy? I mean, if you're going to tell somebody to go fuck themselves at least be man enough to address that person directly and not through some not so vague but vague enough insinuation.
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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Care to state who you see in this thread using that strategy?



I do not. It's self evident.

Look, I get it. Some of you guys don't like Obama. Fine.

Just remember who the actual enemies of the US are.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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There was reportedly enough evidence that this guy needed to be smoked but there were rules broken that's what disturbs me is what stops them next time when they kill someone on good intel but the evidence does not add up later, and our government kills an innocent person.

Also the dudes that get cleared off of death row 30 years later because of DNA I would be PISSED! Each way has their flaws, but I would be happier that we at least gave someone their day in court.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

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the fact that he never told his side of the story before he was killed.



He repeatedly told his story on YouTube and Al Jezzera. In doing so, he renounced any loyalty he may have ever had to the US and was an active recruiter for terrorism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki

Again, fuck him.

Anyone who wants to defend this asshole or shed a crocodile tear on his behalf can also go fuck themselves.



I'm not defending this asshole or shedding any tears, crocodile or otherwise.

I'm just not completely comfortable with the US government acting in this manner.
He wasn't convicted of any crime (you know, that presumed innocent until proven guilty thing). Renouncing loyalty to the US isn't a capital crime.

He never had his day in court. Al Jazzera or YouTube don't count as testimony.

In this particular case there didn't seem to be any practical way of taking him alive, so they killed him with a drone strike.

It is far to easy for the government to start with the extra-judicial killing of assholes like this, who clearly deserve it, and then slowly progress down the list to those who someone doesn't like, or who represent an embarassment to the government. I don't have a whole lot of trust that the government won't go too far. They certainly have in the past.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Care to state who you see in this thread using that strategy?



I do not. It's self evident.

Look, I get it. Some of you guys don't like Obama. Fine.

Just remember who the actual enemies of the US are.



That's pretty much what I thought.
As far as I'm concerned, anybody who thinks it's ok to execute a US citizen without due process can go fuck themselves while they're fucking the Constitution.
And yes, Quade, that includes you. No hidden PA from me.
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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As far as I'm concerned, anybody who thinks it's ok to execute a US citizen without due process . . .



But this is simply semantic bullshit. There was a process. The process is very public and has been discussed at length. It wasn't the process you think it should be, but it was absolutely a process and an exceptional one dealing with known terrorists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_killing#Legal_considerations

All the rest, I don't give a crap about.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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As far as I'm concerned, anybody who thinks it's ok to execute a US citizen without due process . . .



But this is simply semantic bullshit. There was a process. It was very public. It wasn't the process you think it should be, but it was absolutely a process and an exceptional one dealing with known terrorists.

If the guy didn't want to be considered a terrorist, he could have flown to a neutral country and turned himself in.

All the rest, I don't give a crap about.



He was a US citizen. That trumps all else.
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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As far as I'm concerned, anybody who thinks it's ok to execute a US citizen without due process . . .



But this is simply semantic bullshit. There was a process. It was very public. It wasn't the process you think it should be, but it was absolutely a process and an exceptional one dealing with known terrorists.

If the guy didn't want to be considered a terrorist, he could have flown to a neutral country and turned himself in.

All the rest, I don't give a crap about.


He was a US citizen. That trumps all else.


so, any citizens of other countries than the mighty US are fair game!?

in that case, one can only hope other countries do think the same about citizens of the US.

have a nice holiday everyone! :|
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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