wolfriverjoe 1,340 #51 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteAnd calling the 12 steps "bullshit" is pretty strong, given that it is the only way shown to work on alcoholism . . . It has a success rate approximately the same as not doing it. I'd call that a bullshit solution. Do you have any backup for that? (Honest question, not just normal SC bullshit) Keep in mind, I'm talking about real alcoholism, where the person wants to stop, but can't. And I'm also talking about those who truly apply it, not the ones who are forced to by courts, family, jobs, whatever. Lots of other stuff has come and gone, but AA has been around and working for 75 years or so. Edit to reply to Vader: QuoteThe part where i am told I can't control my drinking and the only way to stop is to surrender to a higher power. So if Im being told that I can't control one part of my life, why does it seem reasonable to assume I can control all other parts of my life? Al-Anon's first step goes something like: "I'm powerless over people, places and things." There's lots of stuff you have no power over, isn't there? That's the "Life on life's terms" thing. There's a prayer that's really popular among the recovery crowd. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference. Some stuff you can control, some stuff you can't."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #52 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuote QuoteSurrender to a higher power and and accept that they have no control over the thins they do in life. Where does it say that? The part where i am told I can't control my drinking and the only way to stop is to surrender to a higher power. Where does it say that?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #53 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd calling the 12 steps "bullshit" is pretty strong, given that it is the only way shown to work on alcoholism . . . It has a success rate approximately the same as not doing it. I'd call that a bullshit solution. Do you have any backup for that? (Honest question, not just normal SC bullshit) http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html http://cbtrecovery.org/AAefficacyrates.htm http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD005032.pub2/abstract;jsessionid=E35319A317303D09960EFC2D1BDFAB74.d01t04?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+be+disrupted+5+Nov+from+10-12+GMT+for+monthly+maintenance Quote Lots of other stuff has come and gone, but AA has been around and working for 75 years or so. Which is actually quite meaningless. For instance, Tarot cards have been around for about 700 years. That doesn't mean they workquade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 186 #54 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAnd calling the 12 steps "bullshit" is pretty strong, given that it is the only way shown to work on alcoholism . . . It has a success rate approximately the same as not doing it. I'd call that a bullshit solution. Do you have any backup for that? (Honest question, not just normal SC bullshit) http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html http://cbtrecovery.org/AAefficacyrates.htm http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD005032.pub2/abstract;jsessionid=E35319A317303D09960EFC2D1BDFAB74.d01t04?systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+be+disrupted+5+Nov+from+10-12+GMT+for+monthly+maintenance Quote Lots of other stuff has come and gone, but AA has been around and working for 75 years or so. Which is actually quite meaningless. For instance, Tarot cards have been around for about 700 years. That doesn't mean they work I'll drink to that! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #55 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuote Lots of other stuff has come and gone, but AA has been around and working for 75 years or so. Which is actually quite meaningless. For instance, Tarot cards have been around for about 700 years. That doesn't mean they work True, but I don't think there is any doubt that many people have gotten sober through AA (whichever aspect of it worked for them). They have also gotten sober through SOS, SMART Recovery, Lifering, Women for Sobriety, Rational Recovery, and other programs. Some have gotten sober through individual or group counseling, or perhaps even on their own. And I suspect many have combined a lot of these methods to find what works for them. But I don't think there is any way to get accurate statistics on which program (or lack thereof) works better than another. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #56 October 31, 2011 QuoteBut I don't think there is any way to get accurate statistics on which program (or lack thereof) works better than another. So, if a program has the approximately the same rate of success as any of the others, including not even attending a program, what does that tell us? It tells me claims that, "...it is the only way shown to work on alcoholism..." is bullshit.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #57 October 31, 2011 QuoteWell, so is almost anything. The "check of threes." What's magic about three? Nothing. But people keep spouting that bullshit. "Arch reach feel pull." Why four steps? Why do people continue to use that bullshit, when it skips things like clearing your airspace? Because it works for most people. "Pick a point on the horizon." Why? Who cares what's on the horizon? Sensei, I've literally no clue what you're talking about, but you might want to reread my comment. While I consider the 12 steps nonsensical, I admit they work for some people, and I think that deluding yourself with 12 nonsensical steps is a major improvement over killing yourself slowly with ethanol. I think we might be mostly on the same page here, but since I don't know what you're saying I'm not entirely sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #58 October 31, 2011 QuoteActually that is not true. For some reason placebos still work even if you know it is a placebo. A strange effect that I admit I have no understanding of. You're actually right. I even do self-hypnosis, which is actually nothing more then lying to yourself, and choosing to believe the lies. Not a placebo, but there's a lot of similarities. But a fake pill or manipulating your mid via concentration techniques is a whole lot better then a "Higher Power" which could be God, or a group of people, or love, or Mel Gibson's scrotum or anything you want it to be. Nuty let me rephrase: "A placebo doesn't work if you don't believe in it." in my case a "higher power" doesn't work for me... @Popsjumper: What Winsor says. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #59 October 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteBut I don't think there is any way to get accurate statistics on which program (or lack thereof) works better than another. So, if a program has the approximately the same rate of success as any of the others, including not even attending a program, what does that tell us? I don't think there is any way to accurately determine a "rate of success." How would you get statistics on people who get sober by not doing anything (where would they be accounted for)? And how would you get accurate statistics from an "anonymous" program that doesn't keep records of its members? QuoteIt tells me claims that, "...it is the only way shown to work on alcoholism..." is bullshit. No "rate of success" needed here. If some alcoholics are getting sober by ways other than AA (and they are), then the statement is wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #60 October 31, 2011 QuoteKeep in mind, I'm talking about real alcoholism, where the person wants to stop, but can't If people can't stop drinking, the 12 steps of the AA won't help either. People who stop by means of the AA obviously are able to quit drinking. Unless someone proves that there's such thing as a higher power that actively keeps people from drinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Niki1 1 #61 October 31, 2011 Quote So is this something that only alcoholics have to do, or do all christians have to do this as well? Surrender to a higher power and and accept that they have no control over the thins they do in life. So what if I surrender to a higher power then continue drinking, is that my choice, or gods? If I stop drinking without the assitance of god, does that make me a higher power than god? You'll need to talk to religous people about whatever their religion wants them to do. I'm not religious. I'm firmly on the other side of that issue. I was making a general statement about a technique to accomplish something. Read it again: "Like Dumbo's feather. (Remember the big eared adolescent elephant?) As long as he held that feather he was able to fly. It's a talisman, real or in the mind, that makes us believe we are able to do some thing. As long as we believe it, it is true. Eventually most come to realize thet the power was within themselves all along. Some give up the talisman and others keep the practice for the reinforcement value. Either way, whatever works for the individual is what the indivifual should do. "If it's stupid but it works, it's not stupid." Different strokes for different folks. I have no need to make you do it my way so I won't force you to use my "stroke" and I won't allow you to force me to use yours. As long as yours doen't interfere with me, do what you want to do. That doesn't make one of us better than the other, it just makes us different. And how boring DZ.com would be if we were all the same. Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done. Louis D Brandeis Where are we going and why are we in this basket? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #62 October 31, 2011 >While I consider the 12 steps nonsensical, I admit they work for some people . . . Well, that sort of makes them not "nonsensical." Which was my point. If you disagreed with their content _and_ they did not work for people, then the claim that they were nonsensical would make a lot more sense IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #63 October 31, 2011 QuoteWell, that sort of makes them not "nonsensical. You're a non-believer, right? Did you ever read the 12 steps? If your BS-detector didn't get ballistic over those, you really need to do the course "Scepticism 101" again. The twelve steps are a steaming pile of semi-religious horse crap, but just like Homoeopathic medicine (=water) it works for a lot of people. That doesn't make it any less nonsensical to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #64 October 31, 2011 Quote>While I consider the 12 steps nonsensical, I admit they work for some people . . . Well, that sort of makes them not "nonsensical." Which was my point. If you disagreed with their content _and_ they did not work for people, then the claim that they were nonsensical would make a lot more sense IMO. Placebo has a pretty good success rate too.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GARYC24 3 #65 October 31, 2011 Last recent AA meeting I went to someone spoke that AA does not help you QUIT drinking, it helps you STAY sober. And as far as what surrender to a higher power means is possibly that someone has hit rock bottom and it will take a God, spirit or whatever, etc. to get them out of a situation. Oh, and there are quite a few people there that do not believe any of that as well. Once again AA is a place to go for support to stay sober. editted to add some are even friends of Bill! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #66 November 1, 2011 QuoteSo, if a program has the approximately the same rate of success as any of the others, including not even attending a program, what does that tell us? It tells us you are making shit up and have not a clue as to the reality of it all.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #67 November 1, 2011 QuoteIf people can't stop drinking, the 12 steps of the AA won't help either. Dead wrong QuotePeople who stop by means of the AA obviously are able to quit drinking. Quite obviously true. QuoteUnless someone proves that there's such thing as a higher power that actively keeps people from drinking. Still stuck on that "higher power" having to be some definitive physical thing, eh?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #68 November 1, 2011 QuoteQuoteSo, if a program has the approximately the same rate of success as any of the others, including not even attending a program, what does that tell us? It tells us you are making shit up and have not a clue as to the reality of it all. I've linked several source. It's not my fault you ignore them.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #69 November 1, 2011 QuoteQuote***Well, that sort of makes them not "nonsensical. You're a non-believer, right? Did you ever read the 12 steps? If your BS-detector didn't get ballistic over those, you really need to do the course "Scepticism 101" again. The twelve steps are a steaming pile of semi-religious horse crap, but just like Homoeopathic medicine (=water) it works for a lot of people. That doesn't make it any less nonsensical to me. No one knows how well 12 step programs like AA work because AA has zero data. It appears to be about the same as people who get sober alone. Not to mention the fact that for years the state mandated that a person must attend AA or NA meetings when it is based on religion. recent court rulings have shown that AA is religious by nature. \ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #70 November 1, 2011 Quote@Popsjumper: What Winsor says. Well, he as a propensity for speaking for others. I was hoping to get YOUR input. "It works but it's 'bullshit'"? Are you saying that usefulness is secondary to whether or not you agree with the methodology? Would anyone really deny me having some success with dealing with a problem simply because one doesn't like the method I use? If I wanted to believe pink faeries are helping me with a problem, what fucking business is it of anyone to say I'm a bozo for it? You'd rather I not use the faeries and continue having the problem? If that's the case, personally, I'd be saying "fuck all you assholes"....and have no problem saying it. For the strawman extremists that are going to pipe in...I'll help you out: "Well, if shooting people helps you get over your problem then we'd have a problem with that." *shaking head in advance* To deny that the 12-step program works is to bury your head in the sand...simple as that. To focus on "higher power" as meaning God and only God, is to bury your head in the sand.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #71 November 1, 2011 QuoteDead wrong. QuoteQuite obviously true. Thank you for contradicting yourself to the point I really don't have to say anything any more. And then there's basic logic of course, people who stopped drinking are able to quit drinking. People who aren't able to quit, don't stop drinking. QuoteStill stuck on that "higher power" having to be some definitive physical thing, eh? Not really, the higher power has to be non-imaginary. That's about it. Oh, and people who claim their AA gang is there higher power: well the AA group isn't imaginary but it isn't really a "higher power". The higher power can be about anything, anyway, and this really is a powerful signal that it is in fact imaginary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #72 November 1, 2011 QuoteWell, he as a propensity for speaking for others. I was hoping to get YOUR input. I think there's sufficient input from my side. But to directly answer your question: I consider the AA to be a placebo of sorts, it works *) by the power of suggestion. other then that it's utter BS. *) or does it? The data about the effectiveness of the AA program are shady at best. The more outspoken sources seem to indicate that the AA is hardly effective. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #73 November 1, 2011 QuoteQuoteDead wrong. QuoteQuite obviously true. Thank you for contradicting yourself to the point . Sorry you can't separate two different statements.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #74 November 1, 2011 QuoteStill stuck on that "higher power" having to be some definitive physical thing, eh? QuoteNot really, the higher power has to be non-imaginary. You've made it clear the you believe that. Others may disagree. QuoteThat's about it. Oh, and people who claim their AA gang is there higher power: well the AA group isn't imaginary but it isn't really a "higher power". According to your way of thinking, yes. Surely, you don't think your approach is the only valid approach?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marinus 0 #75 November 1, 2011 QuoteSorry you can't separate two different statements. I'm sorry you can't apply basic logic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
