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jgoose71

Alabama loses workers as immagration law passes

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>And I'm OK with that, just cross the border legally instead Illegally in the
>middle of the night so you can get all the proper documentation and be
>taxed like a patriotic American.

And again, what I am saying is get rid of that barrier. Right now if you try to cross the border to work you will be turned away. Eliminate that. Let them walk across, get a job and pay taxes the same way anyone off the street can.

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and utilize a communities resources without contributing,



Forced contributions to community resources are not very capitalistic. Why do you hate capitalism so much?


It's not that I hate capitalism, It's that after many years of being on this planet I have made peace with death and taxes...:)
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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>And I'm OK with that, just cross the border legally instead Illegally in the
>middle of the night so you can get all the proper documentation and be
>taxed like a patriotic American.

And again, what I am saying is get rid of that barrier. Right now if you try to cross the border to work you will be turned away. Eliminate that. Let them walk across, get a job and pay taxes the same way anyone off the street can.



100 years ago I would have agreed with you. Times have changed though. If you don't understand the dangers of allowing people to just come across our border at will, I can't help you there. There is a reason there are no developed countries out there with an open border policy. And in Europe, immigration policies in the more successful countries are even more strict still. Try immigrating to Switzerland and see what happens.

While I agree that we need to fix our immigration policy, there still needs to be procedures in place.

Still doesn't change the fact that our work force needs to be documented.....
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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>100 years ago I would have agreed with you.

And indeed 100 years ago (i.e. "the good old days") we were increasing our population 1% a year by immigration alone. That's how my grandparents got here.

Of course there were a lot of people who opposed it for what they considered excellent reasons. The Irish were all drunks, and "Irish need not apply" was a common note in want ads. The Italians were all criminals and the Germans were unwilling to learn the culture of the US; they'd live in German communities, speak German, drink German beer etc. Indeed, they brought over lighter pilsner beers, bratwursts, hot dogs and other totally un-American food and drink.

Still, we survived.

>Still doesn't change the fact that our work force needs to be documented

Why? What documentation do they need?

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>100 years ago I would have agreed with you.

And indeed 100 years ago (i.e. "the good old days") we were increasing our population 1% a year by immigration alone. That's how my grandparents got here.

Of course there were a lot of people who opposed it for what they considered excellent reasons. The Irish were all drunks, and "Irish need not apply" was a common note in want ads. The Italians were all criminals and the Germans were unwilling to learn the culture of the US; they'd live in German communities, speak German, drink German beer etc. Indeed, they brought over lighter pilsner beers, bratwursts, hot dogs and other totally un-American food and drink.

Still, we survived.

>Still doesn't change the fact that our work force needs to be documented

Why? What documentation do they need?



Yes, while I love my German brauts, Irish whiskey, English beer, Swiss cheese, and Mexican tortilla's, none of this will change the fact that I like to know that people coming into this country have a Social Security number to assign there taxes to, and some semblance of a background check to know that they won't try to blow up our new WTC going up in new york.

Or are you OK with people identified with the drug and kidnapping rackets Mexico freely going across our borders?

Like I said, times have changed.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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> . . . and some semblance of a background
>check to know that they won't try to blow up our new WTC going up in new
>york.

We didn't have that in 1909; no one blew up the Statue of Liberty. Indeed, even today, I don't think even a thorough background check will stop a 767 flying at over 500 MPH.

We've been conditioned to live in fear of immigrants, and that's dumb. We are all descendents of immigrants (with very few exceptions) and today's immigrants are no more or less evil than immigrants in the 1900's were.

>Or are you OK with people identified with the drug and kidnapping rackets
>Mexico freely going across our borders?

No more OK with that than you are with rapists who are US citizens going freely amongst our people. And yet being US citizens do not stop them, nor does it bring them to justice.

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Or are you OK with people identified with the drug and kidnapping rackets Mexico freely going across our borders?



Yes: those are exactly the same people who work on farms picking lettuce for 10 hours a day and in factories.

Nice strawman.. ;)
Remster

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> . . . and some semblance of a background
>check to know that they won't try to blow up our new WTC going up in new
>york.

We didn't have that in 1909; no one blew up the Statue of Liberty. Indeed, even today, I don't think even a thorough background check will stop a 767 flying at over 500 MPH.

We've been conditioned to live in fear of immigrants, and that's dumb. We are all descendents of immigrants (with very few exceptions) and today's immigrants are no more or less evil than immigrants in the 1900's were.

>Or are you OK with people identified with the drug and kidnapping rackets
>Mexico freely going across our borders?

No more OK with that than you are with rapists who are US citizens going freely amongst our people. And yet being US citizens do not stop them, nor does it bring them to justice.



But now a days we do have the technology to identify people who would want to detonate 100lbs of C-4 strapped to a container of Cobalt 60 or Cesium 137. So we should identify them.

We didn't have mass produced Radioisotopes, 747's, or other WMD's 100 years ago. They had to kill people the old fashioned way, 1 at a time.

You still do not seem to be recognizing that times have changed. Tell you what, you agree to get rid of all social programs and I will agree to open borders. Even if we were to give everyone a tax ID number as they crossed the border, this is the only way to keep from further negatively impacting our economy. The money saved on social security will be put towards physical security.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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Or are you OK with people identified with the drug and kidnapping rackets Mexico freely going across our borders?



Yes: those are exactly the same people who work on farms picking lettuce for 10 hours a day and in factories.

Nice strawman.. ;)


You know damn well that is not what I am talking about. How about a specific guy? Would you want Vincente Zambada to be able to move freely between countries without getting checked?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/19/vicente-zambada-mexico-ca_n_176984.html

Not everyone that hops a fence is a violent criminal, but there are those that would use open borders against us.
"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

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Yes, I can see how having all the building that were ruined by the tornadoes that ran through Alabama rebuilt can be outsourced to china....

Just smuggle more chinese workers to Alabama....

I guess your solution of having all the buildings rebuilt by union workers is more cost effective?

The economy was once in an equilibrium where people doing this kind of work could support their families. How do you suppose we get there again?



Rebuilding from the storm is extremely short term.
HAMMER:
Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a
kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the
object we are trying to hit.

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>But now a days we do have the technology to identify people who would
>want to detonate 100lbs of C-4 strapped to a container of Cobalt 60 or
>Cesium 137. So we should identify them.

No, we don't. We have the technology to identify those materials, but not the people who might use them. (As a thought experiment, propose a border control method that would have stopped Timothy McVeigh.)

And if you're really worried about that dirty bomb, X-ray containers we get from China. That's where the next attack will come from - and we have no protection against it.

>You still do not seem to be recognizing that times have changed.

Times have changed. People have not.

>Even if we were to give everyone a tax ID number as they crossed the border, this is
>the only way to keep from further negatively impacting our economy.

Why do you think the lack of a tax ID number will negatively impact our economy?

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> . . . and some semblance of a background
>check to know that they won't try to blow up our new WTC going up in new
>york.

We didn't have that in 1909; no one blew up the Statue of Liberty. Indeed, even today, I don't think even a thorough background check will stop a 767 flying at over 500 MPH.

We've been conditioned to live in fear of immigrants, and that's dumb. We are all descendents of immigrants (with very few exceptions) and today's immigrants are no more or less evil than immigrants in the 1900's were.

>Or are you OK with people identified with the drug and kidnapping rackets
>Mexico freely going across our borders?

No more OK with that than you are with rapists who are US citizens going freely amongst our people. And yet being US citizens do not stop them, nor does it bring them to justice.



But now a days we do have the technology to identify people who would want to detonate 100lbs of C-4 strapped to a container of Cobalt 60 or Cesium 137. So we should identify them.

We didn't have mass produced Radioisotopes, 747's, or other WMD's 100 years ago. They had to kill people the old fashioned way, 1 at a time.

.



mustard gas, nerve gas, botulism, plague infested fleas... just saying. All of which were not unavailable to smart people in that era.
Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

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Or are you OK with people identified with the drug and kidnapping rackets Mexico freely going across our borders?



Yes: those are exactly the same people who work on farms picking lettuce for 10 hours a day and in factories.

Nice strawman.. ;)


And they do a great job building or fixing homes. When I had my roof redone via Home Depot, the contractor had a team of Mexicans. Did my entire roof in one day, over 2500 sq ft. Looks awesome. They are usually more dependable than other races, plus even if they are paid below minimum wages, it's still more money than they could ever earn IN Mexico, so they are happy to earn it.

I would prefer, however, that they become legal immigrants and pay their fucking taxes like we do, because a lot of our tax money goes into covering social services for them. :|
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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>I would prefer, however, that they become legal immigrants and pay their fucking
>taxes like we do, because a lot of our tax money goes into covering social services for
>them.

Yep. Make all workers legal (regardless of where they came from) and tax them all. Problem solved.

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here is the 'capitalism' behind immigration laws:

Alabama, Arizona, Texas, Georgia, Florida – Anti-Immigration Laws Raise Private Prison Stock Prices

whaddya know - prisons are publicly traded. You can buy stock, go to shareholder meetings and complain that you are not making enough money from your stock - vote for a board of directors in that company that is willing to lobby the government to come up with more ways to put more people in prison, enhancing your stock value.

scary part is that no one (OK, few) seems to see anything wrong with this model. especially the companies that run private prisons.

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Doesn't someone have to break the law first before you can be arrested?



No - being arrested does not mean that you've broken any laws - It's up to the courts to decided that.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

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Doesn't someone have to break the law first before you can be arrested?



No - being arrested does not mean that you've broken any laws - It's up to the courts to decided that.


Your right, lets amend that to say that you have to have been adjudged to have broken the law to end up in prisons. Because of course that was my main point. :S

So now we have a conspiracy between the police officer on the street, the judges and the members of the jury, the Governor and the owners of the prisons. Ain't Capitalism great?

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Doesn't someone have to break the law first before you can be arrested?



No - being arrested does not mean that you've broken any laws - It's up to the courts to decided that.


Your right, lets amend that to say that you have to have been adjudged to have broken the law to end up in prisons. Because of course that was my main point. :S

Whoops still NO - you can be held in prison (on Remand) pending the trial :P



(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

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Or are you OK with people identified with the drug and kidnapping rackets Mexico freely going across our borders?



Yes: those are exactly the same people who work on farms picking lettuce for 10 hours a day and in factories.

Nice strawman.. ;)
Here in Georgia legislation went into effect this spring that is similar to the Alabama laws. As a result, the migrant workers farmers rely on to harvest certain crops that can't be machine harvested, such as peaches, berries, and Vidalia onions, avoided the state. An estimated $300 million in crops was left to rot in the field because there were not enough workers to harvest them. Although some (perhaps many) of the migrant workers were undocumented (so yes "illegal"), it seems many legal workers also avoided the state because of the perception that they would be harassed because of their "race". For the most part, high-value specialty crops that can't be harvested by machine are affected. Mainly these crops are produced on smaller farms, many of them "family-owned". If the labor force to harvest these crops can't be restored, the farms will have to switch to lower value-per-acre crops such as cotton that can be machine harvested, which will reduce the value of the state's agricultural output by an estimated $800 million/year and force many of those farms out of business. It's estimated that each farm job generates 3 downstream jobs in processing, transportation, and retail, so the consequences for the state and it's agricultural areas will be quite devastating. Link for all of this here.

Although the state legislature was warned in advance of the likely consequences of the law, the lure (in terms of votes in an election year) of the anti-immigrant whipping boy was too great and obviously the law was passed, and now we have to deal with the consequences.

The Governor tried to put through a program to "encourage" probationers to work on the farms, but few lasted more than a couple of days and even then their productivity was very low compared to experienced farm workers. Not many Americans are used to spending long days bent over picking onions in 100 degree heat and 95% humidity, and even if you mandated by law that probationers/welfare recipients/etc do the work there is no way to enforce a requirement that they do so as efficiently as the migrant workers are able to accomplish.

So here is the conundrum: we have a "point of principle" that we should not have any illegals working in this country, and at the same time agriculture (and other industries) are heavily dependent on those workers. Is sending a message to would-be illegal workers worth the cost of gutting American agricultural output, especially of fruits and vegetables? Perhaps one could build a workforce of Americans willing to do the work, but could that be done in time for next year's harvest (this year is already lost, and farms can't be expected to go for years without income while a labor force is built), and at a cost that allows American-produced products to be competitive with foreign agricultural production? I'm skeptical, to put it mildly.

There is a H2A program to allow a limited number of foreign workers in to work in agriculture, but there are several serious flaws. Basically, the program requires employers to first prove there aren't enough Americans to do the job, then they have to go to Mexico (or wherever), hire workers, pay fairly high INS fees for the paperwork, pay to transport the workers to the US, etc. The workers can only work for the one employer who sponsored them, they can't go from farm to farm following the harvest through the season. This may work out for a large corporation who needs hundreds/thousands of workers for their poultry plants (as one example), but it doesn't work at all for the South Georgia farmer who needs onions harvested from his 100 acre plot.

What is needed is a visa program that allows a sufficient number of workers into the country to fill the need in agriculture, similar to the old Braceros program that expired in 1964. The cost of the visa would have to be quite low, as migrant workers are generally paid less than minimum wage. This conflicts with current US law, that requires 100% of the cost of administering visa programs to be recovered from fees collected from the applicants. Fees associated with the TN and H visa programs amount to hundreds to over a thousand dollars/year; this is still worth it for a professional job that pays $40,000/yr or more, but it's an impossible barrier to migrant workers who might make just a couple of thousand dollars per season (and they can't qualify for those programs anyway).

Basically there is a huge conflict between America's need for agricultural workers and the present mechanisms for admitting foreign workers. If this doesn't get resolved soon, and the current anti-immigrant mood continues, the result will be devastating for the whole rural/agricultural side of the US economy. Since so many jobs depend on the flow of agricultural produce into the transport/processing/sales pipeline, the consequences will be loss of jobs, loss of tax revenue to support needed services, and the loss of the American capacity to produce our own food.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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