kelpdiver 2 #176 August 1, 2011 Quote I'm not suggesting you've ever done anything too untoward or made any death threats or that the "government" has you bugged or anything . . . but . . . I can't for the life of me imagine a scenario that doesn't have "mnealtx" in a database somewhere to be kept watch on and if "mnealtx" sent out the previously proposed howeverthehell encrypted email about an armed revolt that it somehow wouldn't be instantly flagged and looked at. And again, I don't mean this as any sort of insult at all. In fact, I think I'm probably in the exact same position. The NSA has a nice budget and some fast computers, but no, they do not have the resources to track every person who posted on the internet. I would think they were more interested in skydivers who own guns for potential drafts. I probably got on "some database" in the 90s when I sent Al Gore's office a nasty gram for shutting down McCarren Airport in Las Vegas on a Sunday night when there is a nice military base nearby. But again, if every person who did anything 'bad' got put on a tracking list, we'd need an army of intelligence officers to do the ongoing analysis. But if you really think the government is that powerful, maybe you should be getting yourself some weapons and preparing for the revolution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #177 August 1, 2011 The nice thing about pgp and truecrypt and other open source encryption is that we have a global audience of interested people to examine, test, and try to crack. The technology is less a problem than the user behaviors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #178 August 1, 2011 QuoteQuoteAgain, you assume that the person is only going to use PGP for that one email. Actually, Mike, the less you use encryption, the more difficult is it for people to crack. Only if you don't change your passphrase regularly. And, the more you use it, the harder it is to know what is an important message that needs to be decrypted and what is a simple grocery list. QuotePeople are generally lazy and have a tendency to reuse passwords or make passwords that follow a pattern or use words in their messages that repeat from message to message. Those are among the ways Enigma was cracked in WWII. Agreed - but the person in this scenario probably isn't going to be lazy about changing their passphrase on a regular basis. QuoteFor instance, if I was working for the NSA, one of the first patterns I'd be looking for in messages from AQ would be the Arabic equivalents of "God is great" because no matter what the message it's probably going to have that in there somewhere. I know it sounds like it would be silly attempting to look for that in the encrypted messages, but if I had thousands and thousands of them, even though they are encrypted, they'd still pop out like a sort thumb via statistical analysis. I used to do that sort of thing in high school for fun using the equivalents of Enigma messages. OK, they only had the equivalent of 5 or 6 wheels and I was programming in BASIC, but let's assume the NSA has better computers, smarter people and it's not just a hobby. Yes...and no. These people all wouldn't be using the same passphrase, and again, I doubt they would use the same passphrase for any long period of time.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Belgian_Draft 0 #179 August 1, 2011 Quote Quote In case you still aren't convinced a small group of people can fuck over their government, one name: Somalia. I'm almost certain the current, post-9/11 NSA has one or two more capabilities than Somalia ever dreamed of in detecting the early stages of an uprising. While you may have a point about me perhaps overestimating the capabilities of the NSA, I'm equally certain you personally would be unwilling to gamble your current way of life on running the email experiment to find out. No, I am not willing to gamble my life on that. But then, neither are you so we shall remain at odds over the answer to that question. In Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan the US military was certain their technology would far outweigh any homefield advantage of their opponent. They were wrong. All the technology in the world took over nine years to find one man even while he was communication instructions to his fighters for much of that time. Remember this: You can't intercept a phone call not made or an email not sent.HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, the hammer nowadays is used as a kind of divining rod to locate the most expensive parts adjacent the object we are trying to hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #180 August 1, 2011 QuoteThe NSA has a nice budget and some fast computers, but no, they do not have the resources to track every person who posted on the internet. I would think they were more interested in skydivers who own guns for potential drafts. You're right. I doubt they track every individual. That said, how many people do you really think sit on keyboards all day long and say things like "armed revolution"? It would not surprise me in the least to find out this thread was being monitored; not by a humans (almost certainly not), but just because we've mentioned the words "armed revolution" it gets tossed into a type of sorting bin. OK, so let's say those two words set a flag in the NSA. Again, no humans involved. But let's say one of the people in this thread belonged to a member of a quasi-military group; one of the unofficial state militias and somebody else in that group (not one of us, somebody else) had made some seriously f'ed up comments and also had voiced a serious type of threat about "armed revolution." Ok, now I think we get put into another pile for even more scrutiny. This continues on and on, adding up enough statistical bits of data until, yes, a human would get involved. It's not they they're tracking each individual all the time, but rather a type of sorting algorithm that really would not be all that difficult given the resources at their disposal. This isn't paranoia, btw, and no I don't think -I- need a gun to defend myself against, "big bad gov'ment," simply that's the way it is.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #181 August 1, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteAgain, you assume that the person is only going to use PGP for that one email. Actually, Mike, the less you use encryption, the more difficult is it for people to crack. Only if you don't change your passphrase regularly. And, the more you use it, the harder it is to know what is an important message that needs to be decrypted and what is a simple grocery list. QuotePeople are generally lazy and have a tendency to reuse passwords or make passwords that follow a pattern or use words in their messages that repeat from message to message. Those are among the ways Enigma was cracked in WWII. Agreed - but the person in this scenario probably isn't going to be lazy about changing their passphrase on a regular basis. I think you'd be surprised. The Nazis sure as hell never figured it out because their radio operators kept using the same ones over and over. Again, a part of how Enigma was cracked.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #182 August 1, 2011 Quote You're right. I doubt they track every individual. That said, how many people do you really think sit on keyboards all day long and say things like "armed revolution"? Too many of them. When you add every person of possible interest to national security (say 3 billion), and every phrase of concern, there's just too many out there. And it's not like the NSA has distinguished itself by prevent past events. When its power is brought to bear on a suspect like Bin Laden, it still takes time to get results. But when the target is not known ... Carnivore is not an all known Allah (now we're fucked!) that can pick out the suspects from the crowd. I think the Simpsons movie had it right - a sea of people listening to boring talk on their computers and one screams out "We actually got one!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #183 August 1, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAgain, you assume that the person is only going to use PGP for that one email. Actually, Mike, the less you use encryption, the more difficult is it for people to crack. Only if you don't change your passphrase regularly. And, the more you use it, the harder it is to know what is an important message that needs to be decrypted and what is a simple grocery list. QuotePeople are generally lazy and have a tendency to reuse passwords or make passwords that follow a pattern or use words in their messages that repeat from message to message. Those are among the ways Enigma was cracked in WWII. Agreed - but the person in this scenario probably isn't going to be lazy about changing their passphrase on a regular basis. I think you'd be surprised. The Nazis sure as hell never figured it out because their radio operators kept using the same ones over and over. Again, a part of how Enigma was cracked. I agree with the point about Enigma, but this isn't the 1940's, either. Anyone planning something of that size in today's world almost undoubtedly *would* be smart enough to change passphrases regularly.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #184 August 1, 2011 QuoteQuote I think you'd be surprised. The Nazis sure as hell never figured it out because their radio operators kept using the same ones over and over. Again, a part of how Enigma was cracked. I agree with the point about Enigma, but this isn't the 1940's, either. Anyone planning something of that size in today's world almost undoubtedly *would* be smart enough to change passphrases regularly. it's a bit easier now that it was for the Nazis during wartime. Far more methods of communication, no mechanical device. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #185 August 1, 2011 QuoteToo many of them. When you add every person of possible interest to national security (say 3 billion), and every phrase of concern, there's just too many out there. Three billion people (your number, not mine) would be roughly 3/7th the population of the planet. The NSA is absolutely not interested in that many people and especially when you consider the entire population of the planet with access to the internet at all is only about 2 billion, but that also include my Aunt Minnie in Missoula, Montana (not actually Missoula and not actually Aunt Minnie, but rough equivalents near there). She's a gun owner and cattle rancher with access to the internet. She's almost certainly not being tracked though and my guess is she's typical of folks that aren't. Maybe upwards of say 90% of the internet population wouldn't flag ever at all because they've never said an unkind word in their lives let alone suggest an armed revolt. Unless of course, she started talking about an armed revolt. Pretty damn sure that get's picked up on.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #186 August 1, 2011 QuoteQuoteToo many of them. When you add every person of possible interest to national security (say 3 billion), and every phrase of concern, there's just too many out there. Three billion people (your number, not mine) would be roughly 3/7th the population of the planet. The NSA is absolutely not interested in that many people and especially when you consider the entire population of the planet with access to the internet at all is only about 2 billion, but that also include my Aunt Minnie in Missoula, Montana (not actually Missoula and not actually Aunt Minnie, but rough equivalents near there). She's a gun owner and cattle rancher with access to the internet. She's almost certainly not being tracked though Why not? Gun owners in the rural West have been forming all sort of compounds and espousing anti government thoughts. But ok, let's go with 2B instead of 3. Makes a huge differences to the thesis, no? Per http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm, about half of these (922M) are in Asia and of that, 477M are red Chinese, 100M more each from Japan and India. We're interested in what all of them are doing. Plus all of the Americans and Westerners. So we're already in the billion plus area. Unless you want to argue that internet profiling is more effective than airport profiling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #187 August 1, 2011 Actually, what I was suggesting was the number of individuals being tracked was probably closer to 200 million world-wide. (10% of 2 billion) True, that's just a wild assed guess, but it fits with the basic assumption that 10% of any population is worth keeping an eye on. 10% of any population (white, black, rich or poor) is, in fact, a not unreasonable number of people to assume have some sort of criminal or otherwise misanthropic mindset. Generally speaking, the rest just want to get along and survive to the end of the day. Not take it over. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #188 August 2, 2011 Quote Quote Quote This is one of the reasons I find it hilarious that some people think they could resist using their own weapons agains the state if the state decided to repeat that bit of history or if, like the Tea Party sometimes suggests, make use of "2nd Amendment remedies." It's just ridiculous. Which, of course, is why the US military has completely eradicated AQ in Iran and Afghanistan, right? The issues with eradication of AQ in the Middle East has almost nothing to do with them owning military quality hand guns and rifles. If that were the only issue, they'd be dead a long time ago. Quade, you have missed a golden opportunity here! We have a right wing poster essentially stating that the tea party is modelled on AQExperienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #189 August 2, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote This is one of the reasons I find it hilarious that some people think they could resist using their own weapons agains the state if the state decided to repeat that bit of history or if, like the Tea Party sometimes suggests, make use of "2nd Amendment remedies." It's just ridiculous. Which, of course, is why the US military has completely eradicated AQ in Iran and Afghanistan, right? The issues with eradication of AQ in the Middle East has almost nothing to do with them owning military quality hand guns and rifles. If that were the only issue, they'd be dead a long time ago. Quade, you have missed a golden opportunity here! We have a right wing poster essentially stating that the tea party is modelled on AQ Well they ARE the BASE of the American Taliban. Not a lot of difference between one religious fanatic and another... Same God.. different name within the insular group.. pretty much the same prophets... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #190 August 2, 2011 Quote Quade, you have missed a golden opportunity here! We have a right wing poster essentially stating that the tea party is modelled on AQ Re-read what I've written. I didn't miss it. I simply chose not to pursue it further than the subtle reference because the conversation actually was going along fairly smoothly.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #191 August 2, 2011 Quote Quote Quade, you have missed a golden opportunity here! We have a right wing poster essentially stating that the tea party is modelled on AQ Re-read what I've written. I didn't miss it. I simply chose not to pursue it further than the subtle reference because the conversation actually was going along fairly smoothly. Quade, you bitched about people needing to 'lighten up'? It's crap like this that causes the issues in the first place. The exchange was about Quade's bogus statement that the gov't would promptly wipe out any resisters because they would have an advantage of arms and numbers. I pointed out several instances where that was proven false. Where you three get "The Tea Party is like AQ" from that is a product of your OWN biases, not anything based in reality.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hawkeye02 0 #192 August 4, 2011 QuoteDisarm your citizens and let police officers do their job. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard! Cops feel like they loose some advantage if citizens are armed......plain and simpleGun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #193 August 4, 2011 QuoteQuoteDisarm your citizens and let police officers do their job. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard! Cops feel like they loose some advantage if citizens are armed......plain and simple I feel they are both stupid statements. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #194 August 4, 2011 QuoteQuoteDisarm your citizens and let police officers do their job. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard! Cops feel like they loose some advantage if citizens are armed......plain and simple The overwhelming majority of cops I know wishes more people would take a more active part in their own personal protection!--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #195 August 4, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Disarm your citizens and let police officers do their job. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard! Cops feel like they loose some advantage if citizens are armed......plain and simple The overwhelming majority of cops I know wishes more people would take a more active part in their own personal protection! "I carry a gun because a whole cop is too heavy to tote around." Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #196 August 5, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Disarm your citizens and let police officers do their job. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard! Cops feel like they loose some advantage if citizens are armed......plain and simple The overwhelming majority of cops I know wishes more people would take a more active part in their own personal protection! "I carry a gun because a whole cop is too heavy to tote around." I am kind of heavy...--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #197 August 5, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Disarm your citizens and let police officers do their job. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard! Cops feel like they loose some advantage if citizens are armed......plain and simple The overwhelming majority of cops I know wishes more people would take a more active part in their own personal protection! "I carry a gun because a whole cop is too heavy to tote around." I am kind of heavy... You're a bit harder to conceal, too. Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #198 August 5, 2011 Quote I am kind of heavy... You're a bit harder to conceal, too. "Dude, why do you have a tarp?"--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #199 August 5, 2011 Quote Quote I am kind of heavy... You're a bit harder to conceal, too. "Dude, why do you have a tarp?" Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ECVZZ 0 #200 August 5, 2011 Does Dave fit in a Kramer IWB 3, or is that a special order? Shoots the shit out of the rule of thumb for IWB carry and pants size too I'll bet. G. Jones "I've never been quarantined. But the more I look around, the more I think it might not be a bad idea." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
