billvon 2,399 #376 July 13, 2011 >Ya, as if the Mona Lisa is a result of intelligence, but the circulatory system isn't. Correct. Just as the Giant's Causeway isn't the result of intelligence even though it's tens of thousands of perfect tiles. Just like no one constructs snowflakes even though they are these perfect hexagons. Just like no one creates quartz crytals; they just "happen." Of course, someone who didn't understand science might think that a supernatural agency did all those things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #377 July 13, 2011 QuoteOf course, someone who didn't understand science might think that a supernatural agency did all those things. True, just as someone who did understand science might think that a supernatural agency set the process in motion...It's not like we believe God painted snowflakes on his heavenly hexagonal canvas in the clouds and dumped em' like confetti...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #378 July 13, 2011 Quote>Like seeing a universe so perfectly attuned for life :) Well. there's no one to see the ones that aren't, is there?Or maybe they just don't exist :)You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,399 #379 July 13, 2011 >.It's not like we believe God painted snowflakes on his heavenly hexagonal canvas >in the clouds and dumped em' like confetti... You mean you think "Wow! Amazing! Billions of perfect crystals, all different! I wonder....could it be? Nah, this shit just happens.." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #380 July 13, 2011 Quote>.It's not like we believe God painted snowflakes on his heavenly hexagonal canvas >in the clouds and dumped em' like confetti... You mean you think "Wow! Amazing! Billions of perfect crystals, all different! I wonder....could it be? Nah, this shit just happens.." Shit doesn't happen without God, stop supressing that truth...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,399 #381 July 13, 2011 >Shit doesn't happen without God Sounds like you do believe God is dumpin' em like confetti, then! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #382 July 13, 2011 Quote>Shit doesn't happen without God Sounds like you do believe God is dumpin' em like confetti, then! Sounds like you're supressing the truth with what you wanna hear...Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,399 #383 July 13, 2011 >Sounds like you're supressing the truth with what you wanna hear... Actually I'd sorta prefer if the world was simpler, and many things could be explained away by "we can't understand that so God did it." On the other hand, there are advantages to understanding how the world works. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #384 July 13, 2011 Quotethere are advantages to understanding how the world works. I agree, I guess where we differ is that you seem to think that just because people believe in God, they don't understand how the world works...that is your strawman... We've been through this a many times. Spirituality has nothing to do with Science and vice versa...I have no problem with either, but you apparently have a problem with God. I believe most people, if not everybody, honestly, at some point in their life, wonders about the idea of God in their heart as a plausible answer to the foundation of everything...They just suppress it because of the various implications of such an incomprehensible ideology.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,399 #385 July 13, 2011 >I agree, I guess where we differ is that you seem to think that just because people >believe in God, they don't understand how the world works...that is your strawman... No, it's not, and I have never claimed that. If people believe the Bible literally - that God created the world in seven days, that man was created from dust etc - then they cannot at the same time understand geology, paleontology, evolutionary biology etc. Their belief requires either misunderstanding or not understanding the science behind those topics. However, in my experience these people are in the vast minority. Most people who believe in God do not see much of a conflict between science and religion, and chalk the stories in the Bible down to parables and ancient oral traditions that, while they may have some tenuous connection to actual events, were not meant to be taken literally. For these people there is little conflict between what science says and what religion says, because to them they are two completely different magisteria, and are not intended to replace each other. >Spirituality has nothing to do with Science and vice versa . . . Agreed. Unfortunately, many do confuse the two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #386 July 13, 2011 QuoteIf people believe the Bible literally - that God created the world in seven days, that man was created from dust etc - then they cannot at the same time understand geology, paleontology, evolutionary biology etc. Their belief requires either misunderstanding or not understanding the science behind those topics. The creation story is essential to understanding the character of God and how that relates to the character of Christ. It is grlaringly obvious to those who understand, that the Old testament points to Christ. Too many people on both sides place too much emphasis on the "scientific" implications of the creation story...I mean seriously, how much truth about the universe do you expect to learn...it's only a page and a half...let it go. Such contention only convolutes the message, which is why secular humanists concentrate their efforts so much on this particular section of scripture.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,399 #387 July 13, 2011 >.I mean seriously, how much truth about the universe do you expect to learn...it's >only a page and a half...let it go. Agreed 100%! And most people _can_ "let it go" and heed the science. >which is why secular humanists concentrate their efforts so much on this particular >section of scripture. And creationists. Both of whom are missing the point, IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #388 July 13, 2011 Quotemost people _can_ "let it go" and heed the science. Heeding to science has nothing to do with understanding God. Science and religion have nothing to do with eachother...remember? Heed is such a strong word...the fact is, that nobody needs to understand science... Today, there is an effort to use science to replace God...Bill Ny and Dick Dawkins need to stay in their own territory.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,399 #389 July 13, 2011 >Science and religion have nothing to do with eachother...remember? Uh, yeah, that's what I said before. And like I said, most people can "let Genesis go" and not try to conflate it with the science of geology and biology. >.the fact is, that nobody needs to understand science... Well, doctors, scientists, engineers, researchers, designers, chemists, brewers etc do. (And when someone has, say, colon cancer, they often appreciate the fact that OTHER people understand science.) However, if you mean that "everybody doesn't need to understand science" then I agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #390 July 13, 2011 QuoteQuote>Science and religion have nothing to do with eachother...remember? Uh, yeah, that's what I said before. And like I said, most people can "let Genesis go" and not try to conflate it with the science of geology and biology. Ya man...the whole "heed to science" thing just didn't ring well... QuoteQuote>.the fact is, that nobody needs to understand science... Well, doctors, scientists, engineers, researchers, designers, chemists, brewers etc do. (And when someone has, say, colon cancer, they often appreciate the fact that OTHER people understand science.) However, if you mean that "everybody doesn't need to understand science" then I agree. Ya, I noticed that...figured you'd correct me on that one...but after thinking about it...if all were lost, who needs science? Life would find a way...Glory be to God.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Meso 38 #391 July 13, 2011 QuoteWould you be over protective and keep them locked up in the house all their life to keep them from the pain and suffering caused by the world? Would you keep them locked up so they are unable to inflict pain and sufferring on someone else and to keep them from the pain and suffering of the consequences? If there was a +28% chance (amount of claimed Christians worldwide, of which only a minority are actually even saved) of them spending an eternity in pain, you're damn right I'd keep them locked up. The analogy doesn't really work well since the pains of earth cannot even be compared to the suffering of eternity in hell. Children can make mistakes and learn from them. Once you make the mistake of living and dying without Jesus, according to Christianity there is no chance to learn from your 'mistakes'. QuoteHow can you allow them to make decesions if you are to keep them from pain and suffering of the consequences of bad decisions? How are they to experience the joy and success of a good decision if you are trying to spare them from the bad? Because as I mentioned above, with religion there is nothing to learn from your mistake in the end other than that you were wrong. As far as I know repenting isn't an accepted method of payment in hell. QuoteJust a quick question...You don't seem like a typical atheist. Would it be an accurate assessment to say that you are a Satanist? Theistic or LaVey? Technically I like some of LeVays ideas and definitely support LaVey Satanism over other 'religions'. The teachings of not harming animals for anything else than self-defence and food appeal to me. I also support his ideas of sexual freedom and the lack of guilt that should be associated with so-called 'taboo acts'.As well as the idea that you should treat someone well until they do something that warrants otherwise, then instead of turning the other cheek, you get revenge. An eye for 2 eyes kind of mentality. On the other hand, I think a lot of what he wrote is a bit insane, and I don't follow LaVey's teachings outside of what I do naturally anyway. LaVey basically just promoting Atheism, living on your instincts and making yourself your own god. Sadly many people seem to associate Satanism with murder, violence and sacrifice, when these are things that LaVey Satanism teaches against. The thing is that many people think Satanism believes in Satan as an entity, which would be theistic Satanism or 'devil worship', a vast minority of Satanists (like under 5% I'd estimate). Satanism is an extremely peaceful 'religion', I fail to see LaVey Satanism as a religion though. I am not a Satanist though- no, despite the Sigil of Lucifer on my arm. I'm merely an Atheist who has an interest in parts of the occult, while still viewing them as fairy tale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites devildog 0 #392 July 13, 2011 QuoteThe analogy doesn't really work well since the pains of earth cannot even be compared to the suffering of eternity in hell. Children can make mistakes and learn from them. Once you make the mistake of living and dying without Jesus, according to Christianity there is no chance to learn from your 'mistakes'. I disagree completely. The hellfire and brimstone, you will be damned forever and ever, version of Christianity that most people think of today didn't come about until the 5th century AD, largely spearheaded by Augustine. Early Christians, like their Jewish roots, had no concept of hell ("Hel" btw, is Scandinavian in origin). Early Christians preached a gospel that included the salvation of everyone by "the end." Death may yield some nasty surprises / judgement for some, but those judgments are neither eternal nor vengeful, but rather finite and ultimately redemptive. It's a tragedy that eternal damnation is still clung to so hard, or that it even became a doctrine when it's not in the original material whatsoever.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Meso 38 #393 July 13, 2011 No doubt, the Christian teachings have largely been changed and adjusted through the centuries. But if I had to go through the list of things that developed hundreds of years later through misinterpratation and bad translation - it'd pretty much change the whole of the religion as people think of it. Fact of the matter is vast majority of Christians believe in the fire filled pits of hell, and is often used as a primary means of getting people converted. Especially when one is younger, the idea of burning forever is a scary one, so scary it'll make you believe. I'm merely assuming, in my posts, that the vast majority of Christians today are right in what they believe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #394 July 13, 2011 QuoteQuoteI don't believe there is deity out there watching to see if I am naughty or nice and making a list and checking it twice. Whether lying is right or wrong depends on the context. Proper lies. I mean straightforward deceitful lies. Not taking away from the wrongful nature of any lie but just cutting to the chase. You've told those sometime in your life right? Like everybody else? If so, did you know it was wrong? Did you do it anyway knowing it was wrong? What is your point? I answered your question. I still don't see any reason to believe in Christianity. There is no evidence to support the existence of the Christian God or that Jesus was ever raised from the dead. Or that Noah's flood story actually happened as written. Millions of people live and die with out believing in Christianity and it hasn't caused them any noticeble problems. Why should anyone believe in Christianity? There isn't any consequence for not believing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnnyMarko 1 #395 July 13, 2011 I feel bad for you guys who waste so much time and energy replying to these threads. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,399 #396 July 13, 2011 >I feel bad for you guys who waste so much time and energy replying to these threads. . . . says the guy replying to the thread. It may be somewhat pointless, but it's better than actually listening to a budget meeting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #397 July 13, 2011 I think it is a pointless discussion, but it is entertaining. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #398 July 13, 2011 QuoteWhat is your point? I answered your question. I still don't see any reason to believe in Christianity. There is no evidence to support the existence of the Christian God or that Jesus was ever raised from the dead. Or that Noah's flood story actually happened as written. Millions of people live and die with out believing in Christianity and it hasn't caused them any noticeble problems. Why should anyone believe in Christianity? There isn't any consequence for not believing. If there isn't any consequence, then why do you skirt around the answer? Have you lied? Did you know it was wrong? Did you do it anyway? That is but one in a massive list of infractions that you've incurred over the course of your life (if you're like the rest of us). How are you planning to account for all that when you die? You can "not believe" in dying also but your disbelief will not elliminate the reality that it's going to happen. Your conscience should be alarmed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,254 #399 July 13, 2011 QuoteHow are you planning to account for all that when you die? I don't plan to do anything when I die except be dead. And let's face it, that's not going to require any pro-active effort on my part. QuoteYour conscience should be alarmed. You may think your conscience is only be activated by self-interest, but for some of us feeling of guilt or altruism can be triggered for non-selfish reasons.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #400 July 13, 2011 Easy there is no god. So when I die nothing will happen I will simply be dead. There isn't any evidence of life after death. My conscience is just fine. 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Meso 38 #391 July 13, 2011 QuoteWould you be over protective and keep them locked up in the house all their life to keep them from the pain and suffering caused by the world? Would you keep them locked up so they are unable to inflict pain and sufferring on someone else and to keep them from the pain and suffering of the consequences? If there was a +28% chance (amount of claimed Christians worldwide, of which only a minority are actually even saved) of them spending an eternity in pain, you're damn right I'd keep them locked up. The analogy doesn't really work well since the pains of earth cannot even be compared to the suffering of eternity in hell. Children can make mistakes and learn from them. Once you make the mistake of living and dying without Jesus, according to Christianity there is no chance to learn from your 'mistakes'. QuoteHow can you allow them to make decesions if you are to keep them from pain and suffering of the consequences of bad decisions? How are they to experience the joy and success of a good decision if you are trying to spare them from the bad? Because as I mentioned above, with religion there is nothing to learn from your mistake in the end other than that you were wrong. As far as I know repenting isn't an accepted method of payment in hell. QuoteJust a quick question...You don't seem like a typical atheist. Would it be an accurate assessment to say that you are a Satanist? Theistic or LaVey? Technically I like some of LeVays ideas and definitely support LaVey Satanism over other 'religions'. The teachings of not harming animals for anything else than self-defence and food appeal to me. I also support his ideas of sexual freedom and the lack of guilt that should be associated with so-called 'taboo acts'.As well as the idea that you should treat someone well until they do something that warrants otherwise, then instead of turning the other cheek, you get revenge. An eye for 2 eyes kind of mentality. On the other hand, I think a lot of what he wrote is a bit insane, and I don't follow LaVey's teachings outside of what I do naturally anyway. LaVey basically just promoting Atheism, living on your instincts and making yourself your own god. Sadly many people seem to associate Satanism with murder, violence and sacrifice, when these are things that LaVey Satanism teaches against. The thing is that many people think Satanism believes in Satan as an entity, which would be theistic Satanism or 'devil worship', a vast minority of Satanists (like under 5% I'd estimate). Satanism is an extremely peaceful 'religion', I fail to see LaVey Satanism as a religion though. I am not a Satanist though- no, despite the Sigil of Lucifer on my arm. I'm merely an Atheist who has an interest in parts of the occult, while still viewing them as fairy tale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
devildog 0 #392 July 13, 2011 QuoteThe analogy doesn't really work well since the pains of earth cannot even be compared to the suffering of eternity in hell. Children can make mistakes and learn from them. Once you make the mistake of living and dying without Jesus, according to Christianity there is no chance to learn from your 'mistakes'. I disagree completely. The hellfire and brimstone, you will be damned forever and ever, version of Christianity that most people think of today didn't come about until the 5th century AD, largely spearheaded by Augustine. Early Christians, like their Jewish roots, had no concept of hell ("Hel" btw, is Scandinavian in origin). Early Christians preached a gospel that included the salvation of everyone by "the end." Death may yield some nasty surprises / judgement for some, but those judgments are neither eternal nor vengeful, but rather finite and ultimately redemptive. It's a tragedy that eternal damnation is still clung to so hard, or that it even became a doctrine when it's not in the original material whatsoever.You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Meso 38 #393 July 13, 2011 No doubt, the Christian teachings have largely been changed and adjusted through the centuries. But if I had to go through the list of things that developed hundreds of years later through misinterpratation and bad translation - it'd pretty much change the whole of the religion as people think of it. Fact of the matter is vast majority of Christians believe in the fire filled pits of hell, and is often used as a primary means of getting people converted. Especially when one is younger, the idea of burning forever is a scary one, so scary it'll make you believe. I'm merely assuming, in my posts, that the vast majority of Christians today are right in what they believe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #394 July 13, 2011 QuoteQuoteI don't believe there is deity out there watching to see if I am naughty or nice and making a list and checking it twice. Whether lying is right or wrong depends on the context. Proper lies. I mean straightforward deceitful lies. Not taking away from the wrongful nature of any lie but just cutting to the chase. You've told those sometime in your life right? Like everybody else? If so, did you know it was wrong? Did you do it anyway knowing it was wrong? What is your point? I answered your question. I still don't see any reason to believe in Christianity. There is no evidence to support the existence of the Christian God or that Jesus was ever raised from the dead. Or that Noah's flood story actually happened as written. Millions of people live and die with out believing in Christianity and it hasn't caused them any noticeble problems. Why should anyone believe in Christianity? There isn't any consequence for not believing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyMarko 1 #395 July 13, 2011 I feel bad for you guys who waste so much time and energy replying to these threads. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,399 #396 July 13, 2011 >I feel bad for you guys who waste so much time and energy replying to these threads. . . . says the guy replying to the thread. It may be somewhat pointless, but it's better than actually listening to a budget meeting. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #397 July 13, 2011 I think it is a pointless discussion, but it is entertaining. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #398 July 13, 2011 QuoteWhat is your point? I answered your question. I still don't see any reason to believe in Christianity. There is no evidence to support the existence of the Christian God or that Jesus was ever raised from the dead. Or that Noah's flood story actually happened as written. Millions of people live and die with out believing in Christianity and it hasn't caused them any noticeble problems. Why should anyone believe in Christianity? There isn't any consequence for not believing. If there isn't any consequence, then why do you skirt around the answer? Have you lied? Did you know it was wrong? Did you do it anyway? That is but one in a massive list of infractions that you've incurred over the course of your life (if you're like the rest of us). How are you planning to account for all that when you die? You can "not believe" in dying also but your disbelief will not elliminate the reality that it's going to happen. Your conscience should be alarmed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,254 #399 July 13, 2011 QuoteHow are you planning to account for all that when you die? I don't plan to do anything when I die except be dead. And let's face it, that's not going to require any pro-active effort on my part. QuoteYour conscience should be alarmed. You may think your conscience is only be activated by self-interest, but for some of us feeling of guilt or altruism can be triggered for non-selfish reasons.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #400 July 13, 2011 Easy there is no god. So when I die nothing will happen I will simply be dead. There isn't any evidence of life after death. My conscience is just fine. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
