The Myth of Big-Time Gun Trafficking

[mnealtx 0]

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So the government was supplying guns to Mexican drug gangs in order to create evidence that stricter gun control was needed?

Sounds a little far fetched, unless I don't understand the premise.

From the post that you had trouble understanding:

"Large-scale traffickers, these suits claim, purchase guns in big batches from corrupt or irresponsible dealers, especially those operating in states with weak gun control laws."

It was never about government-provided guns. It was already well-known that the cartels were getting illegal guns from South America and overseas.

This was about building evidence for an attempt to pass stricter gun laws.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[DanG 1]

I guess I conflated this story with the Operation Gunwalker story.

- Dan G

[mnealtx 0]

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I guess I conflated this story with the Operation Gunwalker story.

The original article *does* mention tracing of guns from Mexico - Gunwalker is an offshoot of that, so it's not an unreasonable connection.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JohnRich 4]

Update:

ATF promotes supervisors in controversial gun operation

"The ATF has promoted three key supervisors of a controversial sting operation that allowed firearms to be illegally trafficked across the U.S. border into Mexico.

"All three have been heavily criticized for pushing the program forward even as it became apparent that it was out of control. At least 2,000 guns were lost and many turned up at crime scenes in Mexico and two at the killing of a U.S. Border Patrol agent in Arizona.

"The three supervisors have been given new management positions at the agency's headquarters in Washington..."

Full story: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110816,0,7676977.story

[mnealtx 0]

Seen on the web (attachment).

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[JohnRich 4]

News:

Kenneth Melson, acting ATF chief, steps down

"The man who led the controversial Fast and Furious anti-gun-trafficking operation will step down as the interim head of Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the Justice Department announced Tuesday as it named a new acting director for the agency.

Kenneth Melson, the bureau’s acting director, on Wednesday will move to the Office of Legal Policy, where he will be a senior adviser on forensic science..."

The BATF seems to have a really hard time firing people that screw up!

[DaVinci 0]

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And has only written pro-gun material for a long time now. That's a fact.

And Gore has not written any pieces on how global warming is bogus.... Does that make him less credible as well?

[kallend 1,619]

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News:

Kenneth Melson, acting ATF chief, steps down

"The man who led the controversial Fast and Furious anti-gun-trafficking operation will step down as the interim head of Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the Justice Department announced Tuesday as it named a new acting director for the agency.

Kenneth Melson, the bureau’s acting director, on Wednesday will move to the Office of Legal Policy, where he will be a senior adviser on forensic science..."

The BATF seems to have a really hard time firing people that screw up!

Seems to me that BATFE has a hard time with anything it does.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[christelsabine 1]

Holy Cow,

you are the new Peacefuljeffrey?

Serving His Majesty from Texas?

Bwahahahahaha ..........

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[DaVinci 0]

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Right, and those grenade items aren't generally sold in pawn shops, not even in Texas. The mexican drug gangs get 'em by stealing them from their own army, or from other central American countries. Very few of them are coming from America, but you wouldn't know that from watching the news.

Judge a story by the facts, not by who owns the paper, or who wrote the article.

AND do you know one of the biggest sources of weapons in Mexico????-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them.

The Mexican government seized 2,239 grenades in 2008-2009... You can't get them in the US*

*Well, you CAN but it is a LONG process and good luck with the attempt.

[DaVinci 0]

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For info: Civilians cannot buy a full-auto weapon manufactured since 1984

1986, not 1984. May 19, 1986 to be exact.

[DaVinci 0]

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The majority of weapons are from the US.

No, they are not.

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Turns out this number of "90% from the US" might be true.

Nope....

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110209-mexicos-gun-supply-and-90-percent-myth

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According to the GAO report, some 30,000 firearms were seized from criminals by Mexican authorities in 2008. Of these 30,000 firearms, information pertaining to 7,200 of them (24 percent) was submitted to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) for tracing. Of these 7,200 guns, only about 4,000 could be traced by the ATF, and of these 4,000, some 3,480 (87 percent) were shown to have come from the United States.


In fact, the 3,480 guns positively traced to the United States equals less than 12 percent of the total arms seized in Mexico in 2008 and less than 48 percent of all those submitted by the Mexican government to the ATF for tracing. This means that almost 90 percent of the guns seized in Mexico in 2008 were not traced back to the United States.

Of the 30,000 seized, only ~4,000 could be traced and only 3,480 could be traced to the US.

And many of the cartels are using grenades... Now, I can tell you can't get a grenade in the US.

[DaVinci 0]

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Holy Cow,

you are the new Peacefuljeffrey?

Serving His Majesty from Texas?

Bwahahahahaha ..........

And you still having nothing of substance to add?

[tharv17 0]

Why do people need to buy assault rifles or any gun in bulk?

[rushmc 18]

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Why do people need to buy assault rifles or any gun in bulk?

I do not know anyone who does

And one needs to remember that the dealers tried to stop this at the time, but the BATF told them not to.

They had an agenda

The killing of an agent messed it up

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tharv17 0]

It would seem to me that if you limit the purchase to one assault rifle a month? you could lower the amount of weapons being used to slaughter people in mexico. depending on which stats you believe anywhere from 90 to 10 percent. Why cant we do this? thoughts?

[rushmc 18]

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It would seem to me that if you limit the purchase to one assault rifle a month? you could lower the amount of weapons being used to slaughter people in mexico. depending on which stats you believe anywhere from 90 to 10 percent. Why cant we do this? thoughts?

Ok

You ignored what I posted so I will go with your direction

If you have the kind of money the cartels do, why could not send 10 people to get one gun each instead of one buying 10?

limits like this are only gov and anti gun nuts control bs

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[JohnRich 4]

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It would seem to me that if you limit the purchase to one assault rifle a month? you could lower the amount of weapons being used to slaughter people in mexico. Why cant we do this? thoughts?

There are so many things wrong with that idea, that I could write a book to you in response. But I'll keep it short.

1) An "assault rifle" is no different from any other semi-auto rifle. Your targeting of that particular type of firearm is wrong.

2) In order to know how many rifles someone has purchased in a month, you have to put each purchase in a database, that would then be checked against each additional purchase. And firearm registration is illegal.

3) You shouldn't restrict the purchases of law-abiding people in America because of the actions of criminals in Mexico.

4) Each sale is done only after a background check and with the personal approval of the FBI. So if they're legal to buy one, there's no reason not to let them buy two.

5) Your conclusion that this would lower the murder of people in Mexico is false, as the drug lords get plenty of guns from all over, including from within their own country, and their own army.

Do some research on all of those - you have a lot of homework to do to become informed on this subject.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

It would seem to me that if you limit the purchase to one assault rifle a month? you could lower the amount of weapons being used to slaughter people in mexico. Why cant we do this? thoughts?

There are so many things wrong with that idea, that I could write a book to you in response. But I'll keep it short.

1) An "assault rifle" is no different from any other semi-auto rifle. Your targeting of that particular type of firearm is wrong.

2) In order to know how many rifles someone has purchased in a month, you have to put each purchase in a database, that would then be checked against each additional purchase. And firearm registration is illegal.

3) You shouldn't restrict the purchases of law-abiding people because of the actions of criminals.

4) Each sale is done only after a background check and with the personal approval of the FBI. So if they're legal to buy one, there's no reason not to let them buy two.

5) Your conclusion that this would lower the murder of people in Mexico is false, as the drug lords get plenty of guns from all over, including from within their own country.

Do some research on all of those - you have a lot of homework to do to become informed on this subject.

Different angle

All right one the mark

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tharv17 0]

"Do some research on all of those - you have a lot of homework to do to become informed on this subject."


This is why I was asking. I have never bought a gun. I really do appreciate the response.

What is the objection to putting rifle or handgun purchases into a database?

[rushmc 18]

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"Do some research on all of those - you have a lot of homework to do to become informed on this subject."


This is why I was asking. I have never bought a gun. I really do appreciate the response.

What is the objection to putting rifle or handgun purchases into a database?

First off
Very few (if any) crimes have been solved or leads given by a data base

Second
It is the first step toward confiscation.

As history has proven

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tharv17 0]

"Do some research on all of those - you have a lot of homework to do to become informed on this subject."


This is why I was asking. I have never bought a gun. I really do appreciate the response.

What is the objection to putting rifle or handgun purchases into a database?

First off
Very few (if any) crimes have been solved or leads given by a data base

Second
It is the first step toward confiscation.

As history has proven ***


Are you speaking specifically of a weapons database? If you mean databases in general I cannot agree with what you are saying. Fingerprint databases, financial transaction records, license plates and a host of other databases have been used to convict criminals.

When has a weapons database been used in the past to take people's guns?

[rushmc 18]

Quote

"Do some research on all of those - you have a lot of homework to do to become informed on this subject."


This is why I was asking. I have never bought a gun. I really do appreciate the response.

What is the objection to putting rifle or handgun purchases into a database?

First off
Very few (if any) crimes have been solved or leads given by a data base

Second
It is the first step toward confiscation.

As history has proven ***


Are you speaking specifically of a weapons database? If you mean databases in general I cannot agree with what you are saying. Fingerprint databases, financial transaction records, license plates and a host of other databases have been used to convict criminals.

When has a weapons database been used in the past to take people's guns?

History is your friend

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,619]

Quote

Quote

"Do some research on all of those - you have a lot of homework to do to become informed on this subject."


This is why I was asking. I have never bought a gun. I really do appreciate the response.

What is the objection to putting rifle or handgun purchases into a database?

First off
Very few (if any) crimes have been solved or leads given by a data base

Second
It is the first step toward confiscation.

As history has proven ***


Are you speaking specifically of a weapons database? If you mean databases in general I cannot agree with what you are saying. Fingerprint databases, financial transaction records, license plates and a host of other databases have been used to convict criminals.

When has a weapons database been used in the past to take people's guns?

History is your friend

Translation - rushmc is making unsupportable statements yet again.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

Quote

"Do some research on all of those - you have a lot of homework to do to become informed on this subject."


This is why I was asking. I have never bought a gun. I really do appreciate the response.

What is the objection to putting rifle or handgun purchases into a database?

First off
Very few (if any) crimes have been solved or leads given by a data base

Second
It is the first step toward confiscation.

As history has proven ***


Are you speaking specifically of a weapons database? If you mean databases in general I cannot agree with what you are saying. Fingerprint databases, financial transaction records, license plates and a host of other databases have been used to convict criminals.

When has a weapons database been used in the past to take people's guns?

History is your friend

Translation - rushmc is making unsupportable statements yet again.

Coming from a man who refuses to be honest and tell anyone what he really thinks, I take your post as an admission of you not telling anyone anything again

Thanks John
A little more incite to the honesty of the professor

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln